An Gorta Mór helped to create modern Glasgow.
In fact it is difficult to think of any other event in the last 150 years that had such a lasting impact on the city’s demography and culture.
Therefore it became increasingly puzzling to me that this event was not commemorated in the public space in the city before now.
Subsequently it was heart-warming yesterday to hear of Feargal Dalton’s motion being passed in the City chambers.
As had been previously reported here the SNP councillor for Partick had decided to put this before his colleagues in the city chambers at the first available opportunity.
Clearly some in Glasgow who will have an issue with this (clue: they sing the “famine song”) it suits them fine enough that there is no public recognition in the city of An Gorta Mór.
Any country that harbours people who would take offence at a memorial to Irish children killed in a tragic fire has some serious issues.
Now that there will be some kind of memorial the next move for such folks is to carry out the sculptural equivalent of ethnic cleansing.
They want historical revisionism written into stone or bronze.
However the historical issues are not in question.
What they now want to achieve as a fall-back position is a Famine memorial that isn’t really a Famine memorial.
Anyone who has a problem with a sculpture that specifically commemorates An Gorta Mór in Glasgow has simply a problem with the Irish and Irishness.
The condition is commonly referred to as “racism.”
Yet such backward people should not define a great city.
I am told that Feargal Dalton was listened to in silence as he put the motion and was loudly applauded across the political divide in the chamber.
However, some in the city will have a problem with the very idea of commemorating this seminal event in the creation of modern Glasgow.
In the words of an Irishman currently living and working in Glasgow they really should have a good look at themselves
An Gorta Mór claimed many victims, in the main they were poor rural people and the Famine did not discriminate on the grounds of religion, cultural background or political persuasion.
My grandmother’s uncle was not much more than a toddler when he died during the famine.
A major beneficiary of this humanitarian disaster was the Catholic Church in Ireland.
For anyone interested in following this strand of the story I can recommend the late Emmet Larkin’s prolific work on the subject.
Yesterday was an important first step and there is much work still to be done, but we will get there.
There were people within the Irish community who told me that I was wasting my time with bringing up the famine memorial issue.
They said that it would never get any official traction and that the entire campaign was futile.
I have three words for them in the language that the Famine almost extinguished.
Is feidir linn
linnie
i think the statue is bad idea. i don’t see why we should have a irish catholic statue in glasgow. if that’s the case, are we going to start putting a staue for every culture in glasgow? and are we going to start having memorial statues for all the disasters that have happening in the world? if we do then you be able to walk through george square! i don’t see why people want to bring up the past and to say that all protestants will abuse the statue is totally wrong! I can see why people will disapprove of it though. My question is why don’t they have a statue for the people actually from GLASGOW that lost their lives in the ibrox disaster? I’m sure a lot of catholics wouldn’t respect the idea of that!
September 22, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
The famine memorial on Custom House Quay in Dublin (which is a good model for the Glasgow one) depicts poor people who are hungry and desperate.
There is no indication of their religious beliefs or political opinions.
The famine memorial in Glasgow will be similarly inclusive.
You are viewing this through a sectarian prism.
That is not how the people behind this project view the famine or the memorial.
September 22, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Cooper54
Stephen…….yeah Shota was bood in Belfast ! Im not denying some would boo it at Ibrox either ,especially the Orange crowd ! But not all Rangers fans are the bigots that theyre demonised to be thats all !
September 19, 2012 at 8:22 pm
jimthetim
OK Cooper, we’re getting somewhere. But your assertion that it is a minority is way wide of the mark.
September 22, 2012 at 12:10 pm
Cill Dara Caledonian
I think this could be a really wonderful project that could be great for future generations.
My own idea for the memorial would be 3 children representing Irish, Ulster & Highland Scottish famine victims walking towards the outstretched arms of “Mother” Scotland. However, I’m sure the youth of Scotland could think of something better in some sort of national schools competition!?
My concern is that any famine memorial will be treated badly by the more extreme elements in Scottish society. I’d hate to see it defaced by local Scots & nor would I like to see it used as a beacon for anti-British sentiment by the Irish diaspora.
September 18, 2012 at 10:10 pm
Cooper54
Omg right enough Ben ! My first comment on here was to give support to a memorial to The Famine ! I apologise for allowing myself to be drawn into a petty argument about a defunct football team by your obsessed brethren and will endeavour to get a life as meaningful as your own .
September 18, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Ben mcginlay
My life is absolutely fine. Don’t you concern yourself with that. I go through MY life not hating anyone. Treat everyone with respect. I am a Celtic supporter and I am not religious. I do not always agree with certain sections of the Celtic fans and I am not interested in demonstrations at Celtic Park as regards to politics whether I agree with it or not.
September 19, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Big Frank
http://www.courant.com/community/hamden/hc-quinnipiac-irish-famine-20120917,0,4803815.story
September 18, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Cooper54
Phil,
Souness tried to sign Ray Houghton but the player turned the now defunct club down . Rangers havent signed any Norwegians , Serbs or Uruguayans either , but im sure theyd be welcome if they did ! Sometimes i do think that some of you wouldnt be happy until The Pope himself was our captain and we all sang The Soldier Song ….
September 18, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Ben mcginlay
OMG. Get a life. I don’t care who or who the Oldco didn’t sign. The fact was there was not a Roman Catholic signed until the hype surrounding Mo Johnston. And part of that was oneupmanship by Sir David and Souness to get one over Celtic. And what about the jingoistic parading of the armed forces at Ibrox around remembrance day. Oh how the MSM love that, look what’s going on at Ibrox and nothing doing at Celtic Park. Politics, religion and sectarianism should not be brought into football.
September 18, 2012 at 7:16 pm
SamBrowneBelt
Cooper54
After Sevco’s latest embarrassment, the Pope being captain is maybe not such a bad idea.
September 19, 2012 at 1:04 am
Ben mcginlay
No, so called Masonwalker, I’m talking about your old club organising half time parades to attach themselves to a cause to make them look good in the eyes of the public. Not certain sections of the Celtic fans who demonstrate their political leanings. There is a big difference. And you know there is.
September 19, 2012 at 1:13 pm
Ben mcginlay
Oh aye, and the football strips, the orange one to celebrate the Dutch contingent, aye right. And the the white one with the red and blue sash. Talk about pandering to bigoted fans. Your old club certainly had Dignity. Sevco is going the same way. Different club, same old S##t.
September 19, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Ben mcginlay
Not at all soft lad. I could not be happier. Have you come to terms with the truth yet. Your kind should be extinct along with the dinosaurs LOL !!!!!!
September 19, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Ben mcginlay
FYI, I’d love to chat all night, but I have to get ready to go and watch the Scottish Premier League champs play their Champions League game. Support them win, lose or draw. Looking forward to the atmosphere. Real good honest football. LOL
September 19, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Cooper54
Its sad that a thread about a possible memorial for The Famine has turned on Rangers fans , we are not all the bigots you imagine , or even wish us to be ! All the best for the memorial but not for the football ….thats still allowed isnt it ?
September 18, 2012 at 3:05 pm
Cooper54
Stephen …..i wasnt aware of any warning given to those players , i seen Averladze bless himself a few times without any riots occuring at the now defunct club you lot obssess constantly about ! Im not denying that warning was given and i wouldnt be surprised if it was as there is regrettably a minority at ibrox who would have been “offended” or even outraged by it ! But the fact remains the overwhelming majority of the “klan” do not mind what race or religion their players are at the defunct club we are currently dicussing ………again !
September 18, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Dal
Cooper
It’s the fact that you’re club are so unpopular in Scotland, England, and more importantly in Europe. By their own admission many at Dark Ibrox say that they don’t like anybody. Which begs the question…do you actually like each other??
September 18, 2012 at 3:31 pm
Stephen
Cooper54, If I recall, Shota Arveladze blessed himself when coming on as sub in a Rangers vs Linfield friendly and was booed by both sets of fans.
September 18, 2012 at 11:59 pm
Cooper54
Well hello there Neil…my point is the vast majority of Rangers fans dont mind what race or religion their players are ! But keep on dredging the past up to suit your own mindset , its tedious ! 54 ,55…..!
September 18, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Perhaps the new club that plays at Ibrox (unlike Rangers 1872-2012) will be able to sign a Republic of Ireland player for their first team.
Since FIFA recognised the FAI as the team of the 26 counties playing under the Tricolour (1950) there has not been a single RoI player in the Rangers first team.
Sevco doesn’t have that problematic history-in fact they don’t have any history at all.
September 18, 2012 at 2:59 pm
George Collins
There should be a Famine memorial – somewhere it can be seen, not hidden away.
There should also be a memorial to slavery, perhaps in the Merchant City.
The Famine song is racist; Ranger’s fans must not argue its case as “banter”. Calling each other soap-dodgers and smelly bastards is banter.
The potato blight affected Catholics and Protestants and should reflect this. (Although this shouldn’t be a green light for a blanket bone-throw. It affected the majority Catholic population more so.)
And we should all take care which words we use when posting here. We’re guests on this page. I’ve seen good stuff from all sides. We don’t live in bantustans.
September 18, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Dal
Being a fledgling young historian, I had to search Wiklopedia for Attila the Hun. It was important to understand the analogy between him and Dark Ibrox. Things soon became clearer whilst reflecting on Sevco’s behaviour in Manchester, Vilareal and Barcelona. Moreover their fans sending bombs through the post, and a savage sectarian policy that lasted over a century. That said, best to stop calling them by the afforementioned name.
September 18, 2012 at 11:19 am
corn, wine & oil
smart bhoy RAY HOUGHTON
September 18, 2012 at 1:55 am
corn, wine & oil
the sins of mother britannia must never be forgotten,and we the irish should never let them forget it,
September 18, 2012 at 1:54 am
Cooper54
Wallace ,Souness and Smith all signed their share of catholics to play for Rangers before Wee Dick took over ! Souness tried to sign Ray Houghton but the player turned the offer down !
September 17, 2012 at 9:50 pm
corn, wine & oil
you talk the biggest pile of ertha kitt
September 18, 2012 at 3:34 am
Graeme
I’d have the memorial in the city center. The Broomielaw already has the Spanish civil war memorial. Its a bit out of sight out of mind.
My thinking is, it will get vandalised. Call me cynical but any memorial will suffer vandalism, wherever it is. Better that any vandalism is open to public view rather than hidden away.
September 17, 2012 at 8:36 pm
Castaway
The Catholic church either has suffering humanity as its core, or it’s redundant. How could any organisation with people as its centre benefit from widespread starvation?
Your statement is vague. Do you mean numbers increased? We know that people tend to turn to God at times of great distress. On the other hand there were the “soupers” of course, which probably reduced Catholic numbers by a similar proportion.
Anyway, arithmetic is no yardstick in this issue.
September 17, 2012 at 7:41 pm
Mouldy67
113 hours to go…….
Bucket collection 22/09 Paradise
@Wee_Oscar
Please DONATE or RETWEET
http://t.co/LR4Ajg4L
September 17, 2012 at 7:32 pm
SamBrowneBelt
Phil, purchased your book in Waterstone’s, Glasgow (I won’t say which shop in case I get the shop assistant into bother). It was out there on one of the tables, not hidden away. The shop assistant volunteered that it had been in the window, for a brief period, before some disgruntled customers voiced their disapproval – remember freedom of expression? – and it had to be removed. They were now “allowed” to have it on open display, but not to advertise it in any way.
I’ve started to read it now and it’s hard to put down; however I’m going to make a point of only reading it in public, on the bus to and from work, so advertising it in my own way – and maybe causing a little annoyance to the less tolerant
.
PS I made a point of leaving a copy on the very front table at the shop’s entrance – just happened to be the Book of the Month table!
September 17, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Cooper54
To be frank , Frankier , i think your point about Rangers (Sevco if u wish lol) fans minding what religion their players are is total tripe ! Apart from the obvious Mo Johnston carry on , the many catholics who have played for Rangers since have hero status among our so called “Klan” ! It seems some celtic fans are only too happy to perpetuate this crap as it suits their own agenda ! The vast majority of Rangers fans welcome players of any race and religion so please stop peddling this crap…its tedious ! Your point about the RC Church is spot on though , so peace be with you my friend !
September 17, 2012 at 5:15 pm
Neil
Hi Copper
This is one debate which has gone on since the beginning of time, one of the great things about the Celtic support is the diversity of its support. A club open to all but with one thing in common:-
CELTIC.
PS peace be with you Brother Cooper ….54, 53 ;0)
September 17, 2012 at 9:51 pm
Stephen
@cooper54
Is that why the Catholic players who’ve played for Rangers since the Mo Johnston farce were told not to bless themselves on the pitch or when taking to the pitch so they didn’t upset the Rangers fans? It seems these Catholics that gained “hero status” at your club were okay as long as the Rangers fans weren’t reminded that they were Catholic and could pretend they weren’t. Your comment on the vast majority of Rangers fans welcoming players of any race or religion seems to be well wide of the mark because if the was the case then there would have been no need for people at the now defunct club to tell players that they were not allowed to bless themselves in view of the fans.
September 17, 2012 at 11:24 pm
jimthetim
Sorry cooper, but Stephen has nailed it right there. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the vast majority of Sevco fans wouldn’t howl in disapproval if one of there own players blessed himself whilst entering/leaving the field of play?? Seriously??
Head, sand, buried, please rearrange.
September 18, 2012 at 3:43 pm
Ben mcginlay
Downfall, loving it. Page 36 Murray loved Dick. Does that mean Sir David used to be gay(not that there is anything wrong with that, just thought it might be something else the MSM did not report). Lol
September 17, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
It meant that Sir david really appreciated the managerial skills of Mr Advocaat
September 17, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Ben mcginlay
Is that a metaphor. Only kidding. Books unputownable. Excellent Phil. Had to read it in front of the Klan at work, it’s not going down too well.
September 18, 2012 at 7:55 am
Frankier
Neil, It’s good to eventually find someone who agrees with me that there is good as well as bad in the Catholic Church. I thought I was the only person who thought along those lines. I go to church voluntarily; not, as some would make out, because of some superstitious obligation. I do not worry what my neighbours think of me going which, I suspect, worries a lot of non-attenders. I like Celtic, have done since I was a child a long time ago when Bobby Evans was (and still is) my
favourite player. I didn’t care what his religion was, it never entered the minds of myself or my school friends and I
think that was and still is the thing that separates us from sevco and their fans. As I said, I like Celtic but I love my family and faith before anything else. Keep up the good work of defending the faith.
September 17, 2012 at 2:39 pm
Neil
Thanks Frankier,
When it comes to everyone’s time here on earth, better to believe than not!
I have friends who are every belief and non belief there is, but we all resepect each other, the way it should be!
KTF
September 17, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Frankier
Robert, I totally agree with you. Couldn’t have put it any better. I too am fed up by Celtic fans not only dimissing the Church (which is their right, of cours) but also by trying to curry favour from the “other side” by continually pointing out its faults and ignoring its good sides. A typical example is where you get people saying they turned away from the Church because of the horrible child abuse but still attend Parkhead despite the abuse which went on there and to which you dare not refer.
September 17, 2012 at 9:05 am
Neil
Frankier,
Some people turn away from the Church because they don’t like their parish Priest!!, or he said something that they don’t like….. tough!
When we attend mass/church it’s not for entertainment, we go there to thank the big man up there for giving us Celtic et all!
I totally agree with you, there is more good than bad in the Church and we can do well to remember who put it in place over 2,000 years ago, in the first instance.
KTF
September 17, 2012 at 1:40 pm
Neil
ps they are the one’s who still “do Christmas!!!!!!
September 17, 2012 at 1:41 pm
peter
jim wood. epic fail.
September 16, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Jim Wood
Peter, Phil always says play the ball not the man. I see your post as a clear foul in this context.
On the point of your post I stated I am not and have never been a member of a political party. I judge by your silence on this point that you cannot state the same, are you ashamed of being a SNP member? Is this your dirty little secret?
I hope you are not one of those wee nationalists employed by the First Minister to trawl the internet and push a nationalist agenda when the opportunity arises. Maybe shame is the right emotion you should be experiencing after all.
I am sorry that you fail to address any of my points, you fail to express any positive points in respect of your own position and you failed to play the ball.
Phil how did this clear foul get through your normally strict vetting procedure? What did this post add to the debate? Should I if expressing non-SNP opinions go somewhere else when I see the SNP agenda being pushed at every opportunity?
I still think you have to Keep at them Phil, but I think you didn’t play the ball on this one Phil, you dropped it.
September 17, 2012 at 9:39 am
gazthechef
in my opinion,the memorial should be funded by the City Council.it should be in full public view somewhere in the city centre and it should be specifically for the Irish victims of An Gorta Mor,who arrived in massive numbers to the city and to this day have no fitting tribute.this campaign should be about them,how they struggled to get to Glasgow,how they were treated when they arrived,how they overcame physical and verbal attacks,racial prejudice,discrimination and exclusion to flourish and become an integral part of Scottish society.imagine being a father of four in rural Connaught in 1847 and have to choose between emmigration and starvation?to guide your family across the Irish sea,only to be met with venom and hatred.to overcome this and to endure the mental and physical ordeal,and not only to stay alive,but to flourish,to become an integral part of the community,to become doctors lawyers,nurses footballers.this to me is the beauty of their story;they overcame the ultimate adversity and survive.this is why they should be remembered,and why their memorial should be in full view of the whole city….to provide inspiration and education to the young and old in the hope that their story will make the haters open their hearts and minds and show some respect.
September 16, 2012 at 11:27 am
Robert
Phil, where shall I start regarding this site in general and more specifically this post.
Any credit you are due in respect of bringing the tax case to the fore as well as various other threads is lost or at least diluted with your regular childish pop at Mother Church.
Let me make my basic point up front.
WITHOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A FOOTBALL CLUB.
DO YOU RECOGNISE, AGREE & ACCEPT THIS BASIC FACT!!!
Your recent post on Bro Walfrid was little more than a waste of time quite frankly.
Your refusal to even mention as reference Andrew Kerin’s faith, which ultimately was his driving force to help, showed signs which mirror the MSM (who are regular targets of your frustration at missing an open goal).
Rather you chose to focus on his roots in Sligo…
Really!!!
Having spent time around Monks & religious my whole life I dare to hazard a guess what Bro Walfrid’s own reaction would have been to that article.
You missed another “sitter” fella.
Coming back to this article.
The State/Establishment failed, no doubt.
I put this to you.
Your reference to the Church in this context is your Hugh Keevins moment.
Trying to buy favour by having a pop at what the wider audience would perceive as being Celtic’s grass roots.
Shame on you for this reference & many more along these lines.
Catholicism is what made Celtic great, hand in hand with Irishness.
Finally, PLEASE address your grammatical failings.
very embarrassing.
September 16, 2012 at 10:49 am
Beeegajay
Near the Broomielaw is a spot up high and highly visible where it can’t be defiled…
The East side of the Heilerman’s Umbrella. It was constructed between around 1876 admittedly, but CFC only came into existence in 1888. You can’t get more central than Glasgow Central. Already known and named as a refuge for lost and needy migrants arriving in the city. Some sort of image of figures arriving from the Clyde and rising/constructing/merging into part of a powerful industrial city perhaps.
Union Street meets Jamaica Street meets Argyle Street…meets the lost souls of Ireland searching for a new beginning.
That or right outside the BBC.
September 15, 2012 at 9:15 pm
royster
On a related subject, there is a fine statue just outside Helmsdale in remembrance of the Highland clearances which took a long time in coming. It was made possible by the hard work of people like yourself phil. Great work again phil, well done.
September 15, 2012 at 4:27 pm
k
Hi Phil, a memorial to the suffering of so many people can in my opinion, be only humanly decent. The fact that their has been a long struggle to achieve this tells its own story. I am guessing that like me, for most people with a family history affected by, An Gorta Mor the events where learned mostly by hearing it from parents and other family members, never forget. I will say that i have admiration and respect, for all the people who overcame those events and are still overcoming to this day. Well done Phil.
September 15, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Dal
It’s a revelation to visit Phil’s website. Interesting topics with thought provoking issues. A pleasant distraction from ‘royal erses’ and reality show celebs.
September 15, 2012 at 11:47 am
Frankier
I agree with john mckee (I like how that rhymes). If there has to be a second memorial for those who are reluctant to visit Carfin then it should be at Celtic Park, simply because it would be a wee bit safer there than anywhere else. It should also be paid for by ourselves. We don’t need to get any help from outsiders who would no doubt continually cast it up like they do about Catholic schools. The memorial should be for the victims of the Irish famine only. If the Scots wish a similar memorial then they can fight for one also rather than gain one without moving their ars£s. They could also have theirs in a spot relative to the area where their descendants arrived in Glasgow. A plaque on the wall under the Hielanman’s Umbrella would be an appropriate place and I am not trying to be funny when I say this.
September 15, 2012 at 11:44 am
Cooper54
A memorial for The Famine in George Square should be no problem for the people of Glasgow who understand the effect the famine had on this city ! I , as a Rangers fan , am embarrassed at “The Famine Song” ! To sing in such a flippant manner about the famine was only ever going to offend an already oversensitive support ! If Celtic FC was a product of The Famine then a memorial next to Brother Walfrids would be fitting , but George Square or The Broomielaw would be my choice ! There is no doubt the great hunger brought many brave survivors to this city and if one good thing came of it , it is the momentous derby of Rangers v Celtic ! I for one have absolutely no probs with a memorial for The Famines victims .
September 15, 2012 at 10:51 am
SamBrowneBelt
Well said, I wish there were more who felt similarly.
September 15, 2012 at 2:39 pm
jamesmc
Hi phil
What do you regard as irelands most embarrasing moment.
September 15, 2012 at 4:35 am
peter
so much fo the Labour catholic vote. years they were in power, where was the memorial
September 15, 2012 at 12:06 am
Jim Wood
Shoddy mate,
There has been an increase in pressure now that Phil and other ‘internet bampots’ have gained an ear and pushed a more positive agenda.This has resulted in a welcomed advance in our voice being heard. This site and others like it circumvent the old MSM and it’s anti-Irish-Scots propoganda.Phil and other internet journalists do not claim to be better than those Irish-Scots that preceded them.
To compare is like stating tv broadcasters are better at dressing smartly than the old radio broadcasters. It ignores the fact that tv people can be seen whilst radio cannot, and would thus make more effort as to how they looked.
Or that our generation is better at using computers than those of the 1930′s.
Make a statement and ignore the facts, could this be a political slant from the sneeky SNP again.
I can say I am not and never have been a member of a political party. I stand up against SNP apologists who come on here and try to push a pro nationalist agenda since I see no friends of the Irish-Scots community in this bunch of scoundrels. I see all actions they do, or that their apologists push, as part of a process to deceive the Irish-Scots community into supporting them, whilst leaving their real agenda,(in my opinion,) the continued subjugation of a whole community, intact.
If the SNP really want the Irish-Scots vote they need to do a few simple things.
1.Recognize the Irish-Scots community as a unique part of Scottish society. Unique but not special, just another part of who we are. All we want is equal and fair treatment.
2. Investigate the claims of anti-Irish-Scots racism and if proven quantify the subsequent inequalities in Scottish society that have occured as a consequence.
3. Set up an open consultation to address any inequalities and look at real solutions to improve the lot of all of us.
4.Investigate the secret organisations at the heart of our society, and at the very least make registration of membership of secret organisations compulsory with all individuals who have an impact on any member of the public.
As long as politics, law, journalism sport etc are perceived to be biased against the Irish-Scots community the claims of the SNP and it’s apologists’The best wee country in the world’ etc, will remain just that, claims.
I know this is always a difficult argument for you Phil as you have stated previously your SNP credentials, but until this is addressed the SNP will always be seen as part of the racist problem rather than the solution.
Keep at them Phil.
September 15, 2012 at 10:28 am
John Burns
Here here to Jim Wood – an independent Scotland, as I have sain many times, will do no favours for ‘our people’ in the minority in Scotland.
Those misguided among us who vote and support the SNP really astound me – of course they do it mostly out of hatred for all things Rangers, Union Jack etc – the Rangers brand is not the UK – imagine how much more of an influence they would have in an independent Scotland where we are the 17% minority – they will come out of the woodwork to drive home their belief that Scotland is a protestant country – please please wise up and read your Scottish history (not the SNP version)
September 16, 2012 at 9:52 am
Stu
Jim Wood,
So you’d deny Scotland the same status as Ireland?
And the idea that somehow the SNP is some sort of beard for a loyalist, anti-catholic agenda is too ridiculous for words.
September 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm
Jim Wood
Stu,
I deny the Irish-Scots the unrestricted power that would be wielded against them by a pro sectarian SNP.Power that would be available to the bigots if they were elected in an independent Scotland.Has no-one seen they bias displayed in all levels of Scottish society and condoned by this administration.
I state again the SNP are no friends of the Irish-Scots, they even deny the existence of us as a unique entity.
On your point about either solutions currently available in Ireland,I feel neither of these have much of a resemblance to the Scottish situation.The Republic which was negotiated post insurrection and the first world war, leaving the North under the control of the U.K. The North itself a devolved authority which has entrenched in the solution a guarantee that both sides of that particular religious and ethnic divide would have a say in the process of government. Since I neither advocate an uprising against the U.K. government nor compare in terms of numbers or influence, the Irish-Scots population in Scotland with the Irish in the North of Ireland, I have to say I would deny Scotland this solution. I mean taken to it’s extreme end Scotland being treated like Ireland would mean leaving Coatbridge and some of the East end as a separate state with an in-built Irish-Scots majority divided from the rest of Scotland which would remain as a protestant main-land.
I accept the UK solution we currently inhabit as the best way of guaranteeing my rights for the time being as an Irish-Scot.
So Stu which Ireland solution do you refer to, should I be watching the main post offices or getting my Euro’s ready for going to Coatbridge.
September 17, 2012 at 9:25 am
Stu
Good pedantic answer Jim. Let me re-phrase my original statement – you’d deny Scotland the same status that Ireland aspires to and that it’s constitution specifically legislates for? Is that better?
As for the sectarian SNP – that’ll be the same party that proposed the memorial in Glasgow that this very article is about?
September 17, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Jim Wood
Stu, facts are facts if you see my humor as pedantry what can I say?
On your points I’ll address the second first if that,s ok.
I am of the firm opinion that everything that is placed before the Irish-Scots community by the SNP is merely an election ploy to achieve the support of my community. Unfortunately at the same time it fails to address the real issues that affect my community in this country. There have been numerous episodes of blatant racism that the First Minister and party have failed to address and in some cases have been exacerbated by the very party you claim has taken the Irish-Scots to their heart.See Phil,s site march 21st 2011 on Kenny Mcaskill, or the crown office and the destruction of the data that we can only speculate about for the most part, but from some police info shows how much more likely you are to be assaulted in Scotland if you are an Irish-Scot than if not.I feel the First Minister has a responsibility to address these issues in a fair way before he has my attention. This is my right. I do feel it is a bit mercenary on behalf of your party to build it’s Irish-Scots credentials on the backs of those poor unfortunates who died in the great hunger. Surely common decency states that certain issues are above politic point scoring.I state again I am not and never have been part of a political party, I have no party line to toe.
Your first point is easier to address for me. I do not deny your right to swing your fist, until that fist reaches the end of my nose, I paraphrase but you get my point. I chose to point anyone who pushes an SNP agenda to the community that I am a part of to do so from a basis of understanding and openness. I have no impact on your right to aspire for Scottish independence, it just looks far less appealing from my side of the street, than yours. Do I deny Scotland the right to that same thing Ireland aspires to in it’s constitution, How can I? I can because that is my right to do so. To me independence means the SNP pushing this same ‘best wee country in the world’ crap, whilst glossing over the anti-Irish-Scots racism seen every day. I post against the SNP here because, from all that I have seen so far, it might not be so easy for me to do so as an Irish-Scot post-independence, judging by the hash your ‘Offensive behavior’ (see professor Tom Divine on this subject) bill has become. I do so because I fear the anti-Irish-Scots majority epitomized by the SNP and expressed by many of you at different times on this site. Is that clear enough for you Stu.
September 17, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Stu
Jim,
Bit much to refer to them as ‘My Party’ – just to be clear, I like the romantic notion of Independence, but have my fears over the reality, although for very different reasons from yourself.
I would argue that your notion of the treatment of the Irish-Scots minority in an independent Scotland assumes that non- Irish Scots would be complicit in this – I would say that the vast majority of Scots really could not care less if someone is catholic, jewish, hindu, agnostic or whatever, and find the (admittedly, noisy) anti-Catholic faction to be an utter, utter embarrassment.
My fear is that post independence Scotland would be ruled by the sort of unique-to-this-country, chip-on-the-shoulder antiquated socialism, that would see millions spent on ‘acts of solidarity’ with oppressed people on the other side of the world, whilst the hospitals, schools and infrastructure fell to pieces through lack of investment.
September 17, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Jim Wood
Stu,
Is there any evidence to back up your assertion of ambivalence from the majority to these acts of racism against the Irish-Scots community.No? thought not. If only everyone was reasonable and live and let live, Scotland would be the ‘best wee country’ is this no just the same party line.
Whilst this is stated by ‘the party you support’ I am still 5 or 6 times more likely to be assaulted for no other reason than having been born in this ‘best wee country’ as an Irish-Scot than someone who was born as an ‘indigenous’ Scot.
We can always go to the courts, that great protector of the rights of all to get justice, Really!What happens if we go to court, hmm, if only there was a public racist assault witnessed by millions across the world which was dealt with in a Scottish court. In front of a jury of say your ‘vast majority of Scots’ who ,’really could not care less’, Oh wait what about the Racist assault of Neil Lennon. No much of your fairness here.Or what about wee Aiden Mcgeady and his treatment for choosing to play for the country he loved for perhaps the same reason that anyone chooses, but booed all over the country by these same ‘really could not care less’ Scots.
It is insulting to make these unfounded claims and use them to back an argument over which you appear to know very little.
I now give you my opinion again. I feel too many SNP people just don’t get it. Until your party hierarchy gets it you will all be stuck in this denial. If the SNP start to really get it then they will go some way to improving their position in the eyes of many Irish-Scots myself included. Please read and take on board, or else you can just post another opinion again filled with hopes aspirations and based on false premises.
Let me be clearer you can aspire and fear all you like. I do not care , that is not my place to care or not about your hopes. When you tell me that I have nothing to fear , in spite of my evidence to the contrary, I care and I will comment.
September 18, 2012 at 7:56 am
Stu
Jim,
Tell you what, I’ll call it quits. I had actually prepared a very long and detailed answer to your post, but before I hit the ‘submit’ button, I (finally) realised that I’d still be entrenched in my position, you’d still be entrenched in yours, and it would go round in circles.
I’m sorry you feel that way about Scotland, but my perception and experience (despite being Catholic and from the West of Scotland) is clearly very different from yours. Either I’ve been very lucky, or you’ve been very unlucky. Either way, I would hope that whatever you encounter in the future will bring you round to my way of thinking.
September 18, 2012 at 10:54 pm
lawrence
A joint Irish/Scottish Highlands memorial will be respected by everyone.
Your piece is fine, but is it necessary to use it as a further attack on Rangers fans? (clue: they sing “the famine song”)
Leave them out of it just this once, your work would maybe be recognised by a wider audience if you did.
Or are you merely content on playing to your firmly established crowd?
September 14, 2012 at 9:53 pm
Hugh Hefner
UNTIL very recently, scholars have neglected the Great Famines impact on the northern Irish province of Ulster and especially its impact on Ulsters Protestant inhabitants. This neglect stemmed in part from historians reading of published census and other data indicating that the Norths general experience of excess mortality and emigration in 1845-52 was indeed less catastrophic than that of southern and western Ireland. Thus, whereas between 1841 and 1851 the populations of Munster and Connacht declined by 22.5 and 28.8 percent, respectively, that of Ulster fell “only” 19.8 percent. (2) To be sure, Joel Mokyr and other scholars have noted that several counties in south or “outer” Ulster–Monaghan, for example, and especially Cavan–witnessed high rates of famine mortality, but this is commonly understood by reference to the fact that their populations were composed predominantly of Catholic petty farmers and cottiers. (3) By contrast, conventional wisdom holds that Northeast Ulster or, even more broadly, the six counties that later became Northern Ireland–and particularly their Protestant inhabitants–escaped the famine with comparatively minimal damage, whether measured in excess mortality or in abnormally heavy out-migration. To explain this apparent phenomenon, historians often have cited socio-economic and cultural factors relatively unique to Northeast Ulster, such as industrialization and urbanization, the prevalence of tenant right and comparatively congenial landlord-tenant relations, and, among the rural populace, a greater variety of income sources and less dietary dependence on potatoes than prevailed in Munster and Connacht.
However, some scholars may inadvertently have repeated contemporary claims by Irish unionists, who argued that “Ulster”–i.e., its Protestant inhabitants–eluded the famine because of the provinces superior “character” for industry, virtue, and loyalty. But in reality, many Protestant as well as Catholic Ulstermen and -women suffered grievously. Between 1841 and 1851 Ulsters population fell by nearly one-fifth–significantly more than the 15.3 percent decline that occurred in heavily Catholic Leinster. During the same period the number of inhabitants of the future Northern Ireland fell 14.7 percent (or 13 percent if Belfasts burgeoning population is included), and in the four northeastern counties that in 1861 had Protestant majorities (Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry), the comparable decline was 12.1 percent (or, including Belfast, nearly 10 percent). (5) Of course, it is likely that northeastern Catholics suffered more severely than did Protestants, and it is probable that population losses in the region, particularly among Protestants, were primarily due to out-migration rather than to the effects of starvation and disease. (6) However, as David Miller has argued, in the prefamine decades the contraction of rural weaving and spinning had created in Ulster an impoverished Protestant underclass whose members vulnerability to the crisis of 1845-52 can be compared with that of Catholic cottiers and laborers in the South and West. Furthermore, Miller points out, some poor Protestants in Northeast Ulster did perish of malnutrition or “famine fever,” even in areas adjacent to thriving industrial centers. And Mokyrs estimated excess-mortality rates for heavily Protestant County Antrim, as well as for the roughly half-Protestant counties of Armagh, Fermanagh, and Tyrone (all four in the future Northern Ireland), exceed those in most parts of Leinster. (7)
Unfortunately, not until 1861 did the official Irish censuses record religious affiliations, and so it is impossible to gauge precisely or compare population losses among Ulsters Protestants and Catholics between 1841 and 1851. And although the Irish Commissioners of Public Instruction compiled parish-based religious censuses in 1831 and 1834, few scholars have tried to correlate these data with those of 1861. (8) Thus the authors of the most recent comprehensive study of the famine in Ulster made few attempts to distinguish between Protestant and Catholic experiences, (9) and the subject awaits detailed research in church, estate, and other records. Yet much evidence indicates that Protestants suffered heavy losses, primarily through emigration but also to a degree from disease and malnutrition, (10) in many areas of Northeast Ulster. For example, David Miller concludes that between 1845 and 1861 the Presbyterian population of Maghera, Co. Derry, fell by about 30 percent. (11) Likewise, between 1841 and 1851 the number of inhabitants in ten heavily Protestant, contiguous parishes in mid- and East Antrim declined overall by more than 14 percent, (12) and losses in some parishes were comparable to those in parts of Munster and Connacht. For example, in 1841-51 the population of Glenwhirry parish (92 percent Protestant in 1831) fell nearly 23 percent, that of Raloo (84 percent Protestant) by more than 24 percent, and that of Killyglen Grange (81 percent Protestant) by nearly 21 percent. (13)
Significantly, the Protestant inhabitants of these Antrim parishes were in 1831 overwhelmingly Presbyterians: for instance, nearly 100 percent in Glenwhirry; 92 percent in Raloo; and 97 percent in Killyglen Grange.Indeed, much evidence suggests that the famines effects were not evenly distributed among Ulsters Protestants, and that Presbyterians experienced substantially greater attrition than did members of the legally established Church of Ireland. For example, during the period 1831-61, spanning the famine crisis, Ulsters Presbyterian population fell by nearly 18 per cent, compared with a less than 13 percent decline among Anglicans (and a 19 percent decrease among Catholics). (14) In 1831-61 proportional losses among Ulsters Presbyterians were greater than for Anglicans in eight of the provinces nine counties; only in Fermanagh, with its minuscule Presbyterian population, did the percentage decline among communicants of the Church of Ireland exceed that experienced by Presbyterians (or by Catholics).
Moreover, only in Antrim (excluding Belfast) and in Down were Presbyterian attrition rates slightly less than those of Catholics. In Antrim (excluding Belfast), for instance, between 1831 and 1861 the Presbyterian and the Catholic populations declined by 7 and 10 percent, respectively, but the number of Anglicans increased by more than 12 percent. Likewise, Armaghs Anglican population fell merely 8 percent, compared with a 31 percent decline among Presbyterians (and a 16 percent decrease among Catholics); and in County Londonderry the number of Anglicans rose by 1 percent, while that of Presbyterians fell 28.5 percent (and of Catholics, 13 percent). Even in the predominantly Catholic “outer” Ulster counties of Cavan, Donegal, and Monaghan, proportional losses among Presbyterians in 1831-61 exceeded those among Anglicans and Catholics alike.
To be sure, between 1831 and 1861 the Catholic proportion of Ulsters total inhabitants declined from 53 percent to 50.5 percent. However, whereas the famine and the emigrations immediately preceding and following that crisis made Ulster more heavily Protestant, they also made the North and its Protestant populace less Presbyterian and more Anglican. Thus, between 1831 and 1861 the Presbyterian proportions of Ulsters overall and Protestant populations declined from 27 percent to 26 percent and from 57 percent to 53 percent, respectively. In northeast Ulster, the heartland of the future Northern Ireland, the changes in the balance between Presbyterians and Anglicans were more striking. For instance, in Antrim (excluding Belfast), the Presbyterian percentage of the Protestant population declined from 76 to 70.5, while the Anglican proportion rose from less than 22 percent to more than 24 percent; in Armagh the comparable Presbyterian decrease was from 40.5 percent to 32 percent, and the Anglican rise from 58 percent to 60 percent; in Down the Presbyterian decline was from 71 percent to 66 percent, and the Anglican increase from 27 percent to 30 percent; and in Londonderry the Presbyterian decrease was from 73 percent to 64 percent, while the Anglican share of the countys Protestants rose from 25 percent to 31 percent. (15) These trends would continue for at least the next half-century: between 1861 and 1926 the Protestant share of the population in the area that in 1920 became Northern Ireland rose from 57 percent to 66.5 percent, whereas the Presbyterian proportion of the statelets Protestant inhabitants declined from 60 percent to 46 percent, while the percentage of Protestants who were members of the Church of Ireland rose from 38 to 40. (16)
Scholars have scarcely examined these demographic trends, although the shifting balance between Ulsters Presbyterians and Anglicans may have begun with the heavy “Scots-Irish” emigrations of the mid- and late eighteenth century. Nor have historians considered their possible political ramifications–e.g., for the consolidation of Ulster Protestant loyalism and conservatism, both traditionally Anglican projects–although the remarkable attrition of Presbyterians in many mid-Ulster parishes between 1766 and 1831, accompanied by equally startling proportional increases among the areas Anglicans, suggests that local Dissenters, no less than Catholics, may have suffered severely from the rise of Orangeism and the triumph of loyalism in the 1790s and early 1800s. (17) More pertinent to this study, however, is that quantitative as well as qualitative evidence indicates that many of Ulsters Protestants, especially its Presbyterians and even in its most economically “advanced” counties, did not escape the horrors of Black 47 and other famine years.
How did ordinary northern Protestants, particularly Presbyterians, respond to the travails they endured and witnessed between 1845 and 1852? In the famines aftermath contemporaries observed, and historians subsequently have confirmed, the famine–and Irish and Irish-American nationalists anglophobic interpretations of that crisis–engendered lasting bitterness among Irish Catholics both at home and in the US, fueling desires for vengeance against the British government and Irelands Protestant landlords that found expression, from the 1860s through the early 1920s, in Catholic Irish and Irish-American support for the Fenian, Land League, Home Rule, and independence movements. In addition, some scholars have argued that such expressions also served hegemonic and psychological functions, enabling Catholics in Ireland and overseas to project onto alien “others” feelings of anger and shame: anger that might have been directed against wealthier co-religionists–shopkeepers and “land-grabbers”–who benefited from the plight of starving peasants and evicted neighbors; and shame–for their poverty, humiliation, and self-saving violations of communal ties and constraints–that, if not externalized, might have had destructive personal consequences. (18)
During the famine years a few Ulster Presbyterian emigrants wrote letters revealing anti-British and anti-landlord sentiments comparable to those expressed by Irish and Irish-American Catholics. (19) In general, however, Ulster Protestants political culture, as it had developed on both sides of the Atlantic since the Act of Union, allowed for neither a nationalist nor a class-based interpretation of the famine experience. In Protestant Ulster itself, for example, although Anglican-Dissenter and landlord-tenant conflicts remained common, between the early 1800s and the 1840s a combination of socio-economic, religious, and political factors (not least of which was mass emigration by disaffected Presbyterians) had virtually eradicated among northern Protestants the ecumenical radicalism of the United Irishmen–creating instead a pervasive, hegemonic loyalism to the union with Britain and to its Irish upper- and middle-class Protestant champions, as well as a corresponding hostility to Irish nationalist movements.
September 14, 2012 at 8:13 pm
SamBrowneBelt
I don’t agree.
But good job at cutting and pasting. Where did you get it?
September 15, 2012 at 2:48 pm
john mckee
Have said it before the memorial for our people should be at Celtic Park and it should be paid for by ourselves alone.
In typical politician style the Council are blurring the issues and are hoping to gain advantage at the ballot box.
September 14, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Walter Valentine
I agree with you that the Broomielaw is the most appropriate site as it’s where my Father and his family arrived along with thousands more. Thank you for your efforts to get recognition of the most inhumane inaction on the history of this country. Excuse my ignorance but what are the three words in English Phil.
September 14, 2012 at 7:51 pm
thomas cochrane
only the totaly daftest of the daft will object????????
September 14, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Tony
Young Kenny tells me you’ve been speaking with him Phil. Surprised you never gave us a mention;
http://www.facebook.com/glasgowhungermemorial
Appreciated if you would, fighting the same fight.
September 14, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
I did
September 15, 2012 at 1:18 am
robert cochrane
phil,well done mate.
September 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm
joe burt
Good evening Phil.
Ive just read the piece on CQN about the story in a MSM red top today.While not unexpected it is wholly inacurate and to me defamatory.It is now time for all Celtic fans and fans of other clubs in Scotland to stop buying or reading on line this rag.It is beyond discussion now and time for action,lets levae it to those who believe what it prints and take it as dare i say GOSPEL.
No more should we be prepared to put up with this,hopefully there will be a retraction or a putting rite of the “exclusive”but i wont hold my breath.
Cant wait for my wife to come to Abu Dhabi next week with your book now.
KTF
September 14, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Ben mcginlay
Totally agree mate. Stories like that are just making matters worse. I think Celtic should take this further and so should the football authorities. The rag has just succeeded in making the Sevco paranoia a lot worse. Overheard two guys in work saying how much everyone is against them and how pro Celtic the SPL is. Absolute disgrace this has been allowed to go the way it has so far. The MSM in Scotland should be investigated and cleaned out. Shows you how bad the best wee country in the world is when they are trying to put positive spin on a tribute club with no soul but only hatred and bigotry keeping it alive( just )
September 14, 2012 at 10:29 pm
john
Joe where are you in Abu Dhabi? I am here working too
September 15, 2012 at 4:52 am
joe burt
John.
I work offshore but get back into town evry second weekend and can be found in captains or the Sands,there are a few of the bhoys in and aroud AD at the moment.
September 15, 2012 at 4:52 pm
john
Thanks Joe not many of us around AD keep running into the Sevco supporters. Drop me a line on bishy118@hotmail.co.uk and I will catch up with you sometime
September 17, 2012 at 2:30 am
Scott Osprey
What none of those who sing The Famine Song seem to realise is that Scotland at almost the same time suffered greatly due to their own potato famine, which saw many die and many flee the country….how would Scotland cope if the descendants of those who fled the famine came home??? As someone else mentioned, and I admit I agrre with him” such a memorial should have nothing to do with CFC, although as a club they were one of the few actively seeking to assist our cousins from across the water, maybe it would be appropriate to call it a “Celtic Memorial” (with a hard c as opposed the soft one) to try and englighten those ignorant bufoons who assume that the famine happened in one place only, but in truth is, unfortunately, one of the many things that tie us Scots with our irish cousins.
September 14, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Frankier
I wouldn’t trust this SNP mob as far as I could throw their leader despite having voted for them at the last few elections. They have managed to spoil their false friendship with Cardinal O’Brien so the next best thing to curry a few favours is to con the Celtic support by promising a memorial to the Great Hunger. If anyone wants to pay homage at a memorial then visit Carfin, a place where my mother, God rest her, would have described as “having the grace of God about it”. There is a memorial near the docks in Sligo town, where my father came from, and it certainly could be doing with a bit of freshening up so God knows what kind of a state a memorial in Glasgow would get into. Let it rest and remember our ancestors in our prayers.
September 14, 2012 at 4:42 pm
corn, wine & oil
high time that this memorial comes to the fore as an irish descendant of the famine survivors c’mon scottish people you KNOW it’s time to recognise the irish contribution to your country nuff said
September 14, 2012 at 4:28 pm
lordmac
i think the Glasgow University should have this donated to them,one of 2 statues as I am sure there has been many a famine decedents
lived, and attended the Glasgow University, the other one would or should be next to the harbour where the cattle boats arrived.
September 14, 2012 at 3:38 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
The Broomilaw, where the Irish arrived, would be my preferred location.
September 14, 2012 at 3:41 pm
delbhoy
The famine memorial should have nothing to do with Celtic .It affected the gaels in the Scottish highlands and people of all faiths in Scotland and Ireland.The clyde waterfront or city centre would be for the best. Maybe a fitting tribute would be an apology from the British gov for what was a genocide of the gaelic people and its culture.
September 14, 2012 at 3:31 pm
Dal
People shouldn’t worry about memorials being defaced. One thing at a time. No point in fatalism.
September 14, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Dean Maguire
I think its great that Glasgow will be remembering ALL victims of the potato blight. Those from the highlands, islands and of course Ulster Scots must be central to the planning of this. Thankyou Philip
September 14, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
As Prime Minister Blair’s letter admits they were victims of official inaction not a “potato blight”.
September 14, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Obviously anyone who wishes to be involved in the conversation around this memorial cannot defend the racist and illegal “Famine song”, that is a non-negotiable.
Agreed?
September 14, 2012 at 3:45 pm
k
Hi Phil, quite right potatoes do not starve to death, ships full of produce were leaving Ireland.
September 16, 2012 at 3:03 am
Jim Wood
I have mixed feelings about this Phil.
I am pleased that a tentative step has been taken to address the ignorance surrounding the famine and the critical part this great hunger played in my own existence, and that of my family in Glasgow. I think it is a great achievement to have got this far Phil and I commend you for the part you have played in it.
I am troubled by the SNP involvement in this process however as I see no friends of the Celtic community in this party from their blatant anti-Irish pandering to the mob in both deed, action and attitude.
This may well be a genuine effort to right a wrong, but, to me, it feels more likely to just be a cynical attempt to garnish some favor from the community they continue to treat as second class citizens.
In this respect I reserve the right to hold back on my praise as I would far prefer equality of treatment by this mob of racist’s as a monument to the fallen.
Whilst my sort of ‘monument’ would contain less stone than a grand sculpture, it would be more pertinent for those generations of Irish-Scots who have had to face discrimination from the very people that make up this administration. In my opinion anyway.
Keep at them Phil.
September 14, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Antonious F
great work Phil, if we all took the 1st answer, which is usually ‘no’, and accepted it, nothing would ever be accomplished.
“Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan Press On! has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.”
― Calvin Coolidge
September 14, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Ben mcginlay
Well Phil that’s Part 1 of the process. Next I guess would be a committee to organise funds, the design and an appropriate site for the sculpture. Let’s hope we can eventually see this city become a better place to call home and be proud of our heritage without the usual diatribe and bile that is constantly in the background.
September 14, 2012 at 12:28 pm
rob donnelly
yes we can ! phil
i only hope they have the courage to follow their own convictions and see it through !
September 14, 2012 at 12:17 pm
redversbodkin
not rob donnelly of greenock
September 14, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Neil
Phil,
I agree with you regarding what An Gorta Mor di to shape Glasgow over 150 years ago. I think of 2 place in particular where the memorial should be.
a)George square right in the centre, they are talking about redeveloping it, well redevelop it into the famine memorial square, making it the most outstanding and fitting in the world.
b)The most Irish place in Glasgow-the vicinity of Celtic Park, that whole area has been cleared at the Jock Stein end and would have views from there to the West where we all came from originally.
Tip of the hat to Feargal Dalton, yourself and many others.
KTF
September 14, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Dougie
They will have a problem Phil, but as always – it’s their problem
September 14, 2012 at 11:56 am
Katie Brown
So glad that the council have now given the green light for this project. Just hope that when the memorial statue is erected that it is welcomed by all and not defaced by those who are ignorant to the history and suffering that it will portray .
September 14, 2012 at 11:55 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Would you agree that anyone who would sing or defend the racist and illegal “famine song” cannot have any input into the discussion?
I think I’ve asked you that question before and you did not answer.
September 15, 2012 at 1:19 am
Dal
Sometimes we have to state the obvious. Islamaphobia is also racist. There are certain people on this site who rightly condemn oppression of the Irish one minute, and condone mass murder in Iraq the next. Some consistency would be helpful.
September 16, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Stu
Phil,
Sorry, but you can just be clear about this – are you seriously saying ‘Unless you agree with me, you cannot contribute’?
The guy’s views might be unpalatable, but this seems a bit of a draconian step.
September 16, 2012 at 11:44 pm
Ben mcginlay
William, Stu and Masonwalker, I have a feeling you are all together on this. I know Phil can hold his own, but surprise surprise I am with Phil on this one. Anyway if i was you lot I would be more interested in the finances and troubles my new club was in. The famine song is a disgrace, just as bad as the song a section of the man united fans sing about Hillsborough.
September 17, 2012 at 7:15 am
Stu
Ben,
I think you’ve clearly misunderstood what I meant (or chose not to, I don’t know). I simply pointed out that banning a contributer for not agreeing with you is a dangerous precedent to set – I’m not defending his view.
And your assumption that if I disagree with Phil, then I must be a (The)Rangers fan is way off the mark. I’m sorry if that bursts your pre-conception bubble about me.
September 17, 2012 at 1:36 pm
PaulMc
There is no debate to be had over The Famine Song, and the motivations of it’s singers are obvious to anyone. They are not motivated by banter.
Dal, your point regarding people advocating Islamophobia and mass killing in Iraq, could you give some examples of this? I haven’t seen any examples of that attitude among people posting here.
September 17, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
From Famine song defender to supporter of the memorial to An Gorta Mor…
I remain to be convinced.
Will you condemn the Famine song (ruled racist by the High court in Scotland, June 2009) and those who sing it?
September 15, 2012 at 6:44 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
The Famine song is illegal in Scots law (June 2009).
The debate on it is over.
It is not satirical it is racist and illegal.
Sing that song in Scotland, or chant the lines from it and you break the law.
Is that clear enough for you?
September 15, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/103580-judges-rule-famine-song-is-racist/
The Famine song has been ruled to be racist and illegal by three Scottish judges in the High Court in June 2009.
It is in “bad taste” in the same way as driving through a red light.
Defend it and you defend racism.
Debate over.
Do not explain the famine song just apologise for dancing on the unmarked graves of a million people, because that is what you did.
September 16, 2012 at 10:28 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo )
Did these fine chaps attend one of these workshops?
Perhaps they can be booked for the unveiling of the Famine memorial?
Suddenly those who defend the racist famine song want the motivations of the Ibrox klan to be understood.
I understand racism perfectly well, which is why I oppose it.
September 17, 2012 at 1:18 pm