About twenty years ago I was in a little Irish pub in the east end of Glasgow when the fear a ti-a fine fella from Dublin said to me:
“You’re story in the Irish Post last week. I didn’t like your headline!”
“Neither did I” I replied.
He was bemused by this response even more so when I added:
“It wasn’t my headline.”
Now totally flummoxed he started to cross examine me.
“It was your story wasn’t it? Your name was on it!”
“Yes of course it’s my piece John, but I’m not a sub editor.”
At this stage the fact that I was not the main man at U-Boat monthly probably seemed neither here nor down there.
My mate behind the bar just didn’t know what went into producing a newspaper.
The clue lay in the size of newspaper offices.
Big places that housed lots of people all working towards the one aim.
So, for the Record and just to be clear on things; journalists do not pick headlines, sub-editors do.
“Subs” don’t do lay out.
Major titles like the daily Record also have page editors; the entire paper is overseen just before the presses start to run by a night editor while the main guy is sleeping.
It’s an industrial process involving lots of people.
In my time I’ve been a sub-editor and a page editor. I only once questioned our lay-out guy and as a hack filing copy I never crossed a sub a second time. You know your place in a newspaper.
People, especially when working collectively, can get things badly wrong.
The Daily Record yesterday was wrong. The back page headline and the lay out was very badly wrong. The tone was wrong; actually everything about it was wrong.
As I write this people are getting up from their slumber in Glasgow and looking forward to attending the Rangers v Celtic match at Ibrox.
Some will already have been on the road for hours.
If they have time on their hands then they might want to read this piece:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/sep/17/football-why-kill-neil-lennon
That’s how it should be done. I realise that the Daily Record people are in the happy snappy tabloid world rather that the analytical world of the Guardian. However they should not be, however unwittingly, writing permission slips for those at Ibrox who hate Neil Lennon.
Neil Lennon IS hated by many who will comprise the home crowd at Ibrox today.
It isn’t “banter” or a “noise up” it is a visceral racism that generations of Irish Catholics have had to endure in Scotland since we Irish arrived in large numbers in the 19th century.
I largely agree with Kevin’s thesis that what we are witnessing is the outworking of a racism that is in its death throes. That having achieved occupational parity in 2001 Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland will no longer tolerate the Ibrox culture. The “Bears” don’t like this new dispensation one bit and in Neil Lennon they have in their deranged minds an uppity fenian from central casting.
I have met Neil Lennon in a professional capacity at press conferences on several occasions and he is courteous, intelligent, polite, honest and thoughtful.
In the dugout he is as he was on the field of play-a warrior.
Neil Lennon’s crime for many of the home crowd today isn’t that he’s the manager of Celtic it is that he is an Irish Catholic managing Celtic.
They do not KNOW Neil Lennon.
What they hate is what he symbolises.
The Croppy who won’t lie down.
Here is the embodiment that tells them deep in their racist hearts that the old days are over.
There are, sadly, some in the mainstream media in Scotland who also have to play catch up.
They should join with the rest of us in challenging these Victorian attitudes.
The Ibrox crowd is a manifestation of a belief system that should never have survived the 20th Century let alone still be around in 2011.
Habitat removal is the key to extinction. The pages of tabloid newspapers in Scotland must become unfailingly hostile to those who today will, undoubtedly, pour out their racist hatred for a young man from Lurgan.
You don’t need to know how a newspaper is put together to read something and know that it is just plain wrong.
I hope my old buddy from the Squirrel is doing well and on Hill 16 today at Croker. The all-Ireland final is one of the great sporting occasions in the world. It is a wonderful event with a genuine life affirming atmosphere. Funnily enough it doesn’t have Rangers supporters as part of the package. Those folks need house training and the Daily Record can become part of the solution. Yesterday they didn’t help the problem one little bit.
Must do better guys.
George Collins
Having Rangers fans saying that there is no anti-catholic sentiment in Scotland really does take the biscuit. It reminds me of when you used to see whites, in England and Anerica, say, ” There’s no racism in our society “, when speaking of blacks. Remember that to be catholic in Scotland means that you are overwhelmingly likely to be of post-potato blight Irish descent. It’s only since the advent of emailing CVs to employers that we’ve seen the decline of ” What school did you go to? ” ( In N.I. this was put as ” What nationality are you? ” )There was one reason for this, and we all know what it was. In the book ” Sectarianism in Scotland “, the authors assert that sectarianism in the workplace can’t be proved to have existed because there’s almost no record of it. That piece of thinking reminds me of Noam Chomsky’s refusal to believe that JFK was assassinated by, what Peter Dale Scott calls, the Deep State, because there’s ” no record of it “. As Michael Parenti posed : Why would they ( the conspirators )risk everything by doing this ? And therein lies the truth of the matter. Nobody is saying that there was a secret government decree, stating that : all papes must be refused entry to work. However, it is absolutely undeniable that there was huge discrimination for meny a year. To think that this mindset has disappeared is nonsense; when have the purveyors of bigotry ever been held to account for their actions? For them, they hope that those working to uncover the truth will just disappear; such people are to tarred with the paranoia brush.
February 24, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Garry Kerr
Jim Jim Jim, did you not get the point of my statistic remark earlier? You like making stats up not me. I have been quite clear that in my opinion there is no anti-catholic agenda in this country, no one has given me an example of where and when this happens. I am married to a wonderful woman who happens to be a catholic and it has NEVER been a problem in family, work or social life. I have worked for seven companies in my life and never came across or heard of anyone being discriminated because they were a catholic. I have dealt with cases of homophobic allegations and racist allegations. Indeed Scotland suffered a homophobic attack last night. Yet I would maintain the majority of people in this country are not racist or homophobic but you get some. So against this background you insist that the majority of Rangers fans hate Catholics cos you say so? And you want me to say a figure that no one can possibly know so you can counter with another bogus figure? And the singing of sectarian songs, I think there has been a good advance in educating people that is unacceptable. Answer me this Jim, how many of the Celtic fans who sing or have sung pro IRA songs left the ground, went to Ireland and joined the IRA?
September 26, 2011 at 4:42 pm
jimthetim
Thats right Garry, avoid, avoid, avoid. Are you genuinely trying to say that there is not an anti-Catholic agenda which surrounds rangers football club and its supporters?
September 26, 2011 at 7:29 pm
Garry Kerr
Jim what am I avoiding? you have asked me to provide a percentage that no one can provide. What do you think it is and provide your evidence.
September 26, 2011 at 10:06 pm
Garry Kerr
Jim – Can you explain to me what Rangers anti-catholic policy is and why they have it? I thought it ended with the signing of Mo Johnston about 22 years ago.
September 26, 2011 at 10:17 pm
jimthetim
C’mon now Garry alarm bells are ringing. Did I say policy? No, I chose my words very carefully and the word I used was ‘agenda’. So lets look at you trying to give a straight answer for once, do you believe that an anti-catholic ‘AGENDA’ exists at ibrox, either surrounding the club itself or its fans. Now remember, you’re on a public forum here, and this answer could indicate one of the greatest ‘head-in-the-sand’ theories of all time. No pressure there then?!
September 27, 2011 at 7:40 am
Garry Kerr
Hi Jim, the following are definitions for the word agenda:-
agenda :- a series of steps to be carried out or goals to be accomplished; “they drew up a six-step plan”; “they discussed plans for a new bond issue”
agenda : – A list or program of things to be done or considered
So to be clear you think there is a discussion/conspiracy/plan in place to be anti-catholic by Rangers and the supporters and it does not exist now? I thought you meant it was in place now as in a policy. Sorry my mistake.
Do i think there is a anti catholic agenda at Rangers. No. Do I think there is an anti-catholic policy with the majority of supporters at Ibrox? No. Do i think a lot of people hate/dislike Lennon? Yes. Do I think this is because he is Catholic? No. Do i think there is an anti catholic agenda/policy in Scotland? No. Is there people with extreme views in every walk of life? Yes. Do I think the majority of Rangers fans are anti catholic? No. Do I think Rangers fans love beating Celtic? Yes. Do i think people like you insist there is with absolutely no evidence to back it up? Yes.
You are always demanding answers Jim so answer this. Where does this anti-catholic agenda manifest itself? Give me some clear examples where there has been anti-catholic actions? I have asked various people on this site this question and no one has given me a single example.
September 27, 2011 at 11:27 am
jimthetim
Garry, thank you for your answer. You’ve just successfully confirmed exactly what I thought, cheers.
September 27, 2011 at 2:08 pm
garry kerr
Poor reply Jim, very poor.
What is it you think Jim?
I confirmed I don’t agree with you.
And jim, why do you never deabte any point that is put to you? You never answer a single question or point raised. You simply cling to your warped opinion and refuse to justify it because you simply cannot. I will tr once more. Show me your evidence of anything that is anti-catholic in this country – tell me your personal experince of it – prove to me that the majority of Rangers fans hate lennon because he is a catholic – explain to me why suporters of other clubs hate Lennon and prove it is an anti catholic thing.
September 27, 2011 at 3:47 pm
albannach-éireannach
I despair for this country of ours. I have seen since my one and only post so far, a few months ago, not a reduction yet an increase in “reasons” for hating someone. Erm, I believed that we lived in a civilized nation, where intolerance (which includes hate!) was the only intolerable facet remaining. Yes, we all dislike some one or other person for perceived aggrievances. But to denigrate, reduce and marginalize someone for any reason is to me the most intolerant and backwards conflict within society. Thus, hate cannot be permitted. This hate, we know, has manifested itself in many a form. It would be a waste of time to list them.
Once we realise that we in Scotland have intentionally skewed and warped facts and statistics to suit an agenda, where there is a vile pantomime of heroes and villains, and we dispose of the simmering tension through reconcilaition with each other is now a burning neccessity. How is this resolved best? By accepting that we are different! I feel that all opinions are valid till they belittle others’ tenaciously-held convictions. I do not deem any sporting event or team as worthy of mind-bending, unfathomable obeisance that steers the mind away from altruistic ties. Neighbourhoods are fraught with rivalry that does not fall within that of sibling rivalry, whether one believes in Adam and Eve as our progenitors, or whether we are ultimately descended from a primeval fluid….so, we were formed from the earth, just as both the Bible and Darwin would agree (contradicting, I know!), which thus makes us all brethren. Do we really need to say that we must all conform to one set of rules and regulations? It would be the greatest pity to fail to recognize the beauty in diversity (which – coincidentally we see all around us in nature – from flora to fauna). Thus, an understanding of how we perceive God / life or however you follow life, demands of the adherent / humanist that the values of all are upheld, justice sought and a solution would be found.
Presbyterianism is neither invalid just as far as Roman Catholicism and science and humanism are not invalid. It seems the Reformers had a salient point to make in their relationship with God (ie no intercessors before God being one of the main); Islam and Judaism have their traditions, as do all monotheistic faiths. If there were ways to negate the natural rivalry in us all, its the breaking down of barriers and actively involving oneself in the rebuiliding of communities, whilst retaining the mutual respect that permits the development of our own path in life.
My tuppence worth on this “I hate/ I don’t hate” to-ing and fro-ing between fans.
Oh, and well done to Baile Ùr an t-Slèibh (Newtonmore) for their stunning win last Saturday!
September 23, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Garry Kerr
Well this a very eloquent and wordy piece but alas pretty irrelevant and not a little fanciful. Hate is universal and to suggest “this country” has a bigger problem with it than others is an abject nonsense. Again another statement that does not bear up to scrutiny. I would say the hate in Rwanda in the genocide where neighbours of many years hacked families to death was a hate problem (if you insist we have one) of bigger proportions than ours. You cannot insist that all hate is wrong and then suggest this country is worse. People in Northern Ireland live with massive fences dividing them and this country is worse?. The reasons for hate and what you do about it is the argument.I hate dog owners who let there dogs s*** on public parks and we have to go around lifting it so my son and his team can play football. If you tried to lecture me on this then frankly I would tell you to p*** off. By the same token I would not attack the person or the dog but would like to see them being fined for doing it. Fair enough?
The two main arguments in this debate have mainly been:- Is Scotland anti-catholic? Is Lennon hated because he is a catholic? I have seen no evidence of the first. No one has given examples except “I am abused on a daily basis” which is at best vague and more likely a lie or an argument of it just is! The second is yes, a minority of people will bring Lennon’s religion into to it and some extremely so (and lets hope the police have the right guys for it) but the majority of people hate/dislike/cant stand him because of the reasons I and others have said before. They don’t like him as a man. The same as Souness was hated.
September 26, 2011 at 8:38 am
PaulMc
Hello again Gary. I think you’re a wee bit harsh on this post. I certainly didn’t see the poster say that they think Scotland is worse than other countries. Their main point appears to be that we should all learn to respect each other, no matter our background or beliefs.
September 27, 2011 at 12:53 am
Garry Kerr
Hi Paul,
I will take that on board Paul – fair enough. I think the opening line of the contribution set the tone for reply.
September 27, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Jason
What a lot of complete rubbish!
Are you honestly saying that if you are Catholic you will get different treatment than other people in Scotland with different faith? Come on that is a total joke, I am an atheist with lots of Catholic friends who are very sucessful and have never complained about being treated any different than anyone else. You make your own luck in this world. Its posts like this that fuel the bad situation in the west of Scotland, total dross journalism. What is your agenda writing posts like this? Please explain?
In reference to your piece on Neil Lennon – The idiots who were sending him death threats and alike last year were not your ordinary football fans. Rangers fans dont like Neil Lennon as he is a tenacious character and has an aggressive manor etc, nothing do to with his faith. He was hated as a player and is as a manager, its all about his persona and the way he conducts himself at the side of the pitch, he loves the banter with Gers fans that is clear to see. I am a Rangers fan (pretty obvious) but I dont hate Neil lennon at all, I dont like him but what Celtic fans like Ally McCoist? Or Walter Smith? Its football life and totally normal. Please stop writing things that stir up trouble between fans, the people in Scotland are trying to move away from this stuff. All my friends are mixed Old Firm fans, socially and professionally, and we are all good mates and do not have any issues with each other at all. The problem is not as bad as people like you make out. Rangers and Celtic are SCOTTISH FOOTBALL TEAMS and I for one hate the connection both clubs have with Ireland and Northern Ireland.
September 22, 2011 at 12:04 pm
jimthetim
Oh dear Jason, you are surely one of the most deluded characters to appear on this forum. ‘Rangers fans don’t hate Neil Lennon because he is Catholic’, i’ve never heard such drivel. So the Rangers fans in Northern Ireland for example who burn effigies of him on bonfires on the 12th, daub painted slogans of the hangmans noose with ‘Lennon RIP’ and booed him when playing in his own countries jersey, they all hated Lennon bexause he is obnoxious. What absolute bollocks, and before you say ‘we’re different over here’ or its a minority, well thats bollocks as well. Thats worse than the clowns who say ‘he brings it upon himself’. What a joker. Lets take the dubious case of El Hadj Diouf. Your mob decided to sign him after a past incident where he spat on a Celtic fan at Celtic Park. Antagonistic to say the least. Listen to some of the character reports on that guy from his time in England, an all round guffy I think you would say. Did he receive death threats/parcel bombs/bullets in the post? But hey, the Neil Lennon situation is ‘being blown out of proportion’. Get real and pull your head out of your backside. Face up to it, the MAJORITY of rangers fans are bigots, and hate Lennon for his religion. End of.
September 22, 2011 at 7:40 pm
Keith
Jimthetim, so what’s your take on the abuse Nacho Novo used to take from the majority of Celtic fans as mentioned by wmc below?
September 22, 2011 at 11:33 pm
Keith
End of.
September 22, 2011 at 11:34 pm
Garry Kerr
Ok Jimthetim, explain why Martin O’Neill was not hated this way?
September 23, 2011 at 12:10 am
jimthetim
Nacho Novo? What has this got to do with Nacho Novo? I am, obviously, a Celtic supporter and I couldn’t stand the little s@@t, but thats not because of his religion, are you getting the point here? I couldn’t stand him because he was an irritant, the same way I can’t stand McGregor, Naismith and of course Lafferty. But let me ask you this, any death threats there? Any bullets, parcel bombs? No, exactly. What really gets me though is the ‘its only a minority’. I’ve seen the camera pan around Ibrox in the past when they were singing the Billy Boys and nearly every man/woman/child was on their feet, hands proudly held aloft, so don’t try and kid us all. But you get any of the rotten mob on a forum or a phone-in and ask them directly, ‘are you a bigot’ and you’ll get the standard response, ‘absolutely not, i’ve got friends who are Catholics’. Rotten to the core, but i’d have more respect for each one if they at least stood up and admitted their shame. Scotland’s shame indeed.
September 23, 2011 at 7:37 am
jimthetim
Oh and Keith, one more thing. In your post where you mention Novo, you have very conveniently refused to answer any of the allegations in my previous post?? Anything to say on those points, or like most fans of the dark side do you just ignore them as hearsay, or mere trivialities. Address the points your supporters have, the rest of the world have grown up and moved on.
September 23, 2011 at 7:44 am
Simmy
I love how when people claim “Fact” and “End of” without anything to back it up but opinion.
If you asked a Rangers fan why he didn’t like Neil Lennon and he/she said it had nothing to do with religion, who are you to tell them they are lying?
And regarding the MON point, it’s a question that continually gets ignored. If there is an answer can someone please give it?
September 23, 2011 at 8:31 am
PaulMc
I think the difference between Martin O’Neill and Neil Lennon came for many Northern Ireland and Rangers fans (and oddly other Scottish people judging by the timing of the reaction) when Neil seemed to be alluding to wanting to see a united Irish football team along the lines of the Rugby side. I do have some recollection of the interview, and while he stopped short of calling for the side he did say he wouldn’t have a problem playing for them. I thought at the time that this could prove problematic, sadly I was proved right. All of the major problems for Neil stem from this. I did search for the original interview last night, but without success, I did find several articles which mention it.
It reminded me of a time when Graeme Souness said he wished there was a British international team as he would have loved the chance to play for them and I felt pretty angry over his remarks. That was all I felt however and he certainly received no death threats from other Scotland fans.
September 23, 2011 at 11:51 am
gary kerr
Jimthetim? I see so Nacho is a wee s*** and he is an irritant and you are allowed to not stand him as you cant stand McGregor etc – but if you hate lennon then you must hate him because he is a catholic? So you cant dislike his manner, what he says , his antics , his arrogance, his look etc You cant dislike him for being the manager of your biggest rivals? So one law for you and a different one for everyone else? Grow up.
Paul Mc – you seem to recollect Neil Lennon talking about a united Ireland football team and thats the difference between hime and Martin O’Neil? Thats about as flimsy a reason you could offer why Martin O’Neill was not hated as much as Lennon. Why can you noy accept that people dont like him for other reasons away from religion. You yourself metion Souness and I have used him as an example. He was hated by all supporters outside of Rangers because of his public persona and perception – not because of religion. When are you guys going to stop talking this crap – Lennon is not a likeable guy to other supporters full stop. It’s laughable the guff that is spouted about him.
September 23, 2011 at 1:08 pm
jimthetim
Silly, sorry Simmy, please ask your (now) silent partner Keith to address the points in my first post, he STILL hasn’t done so. Then I was wondering if you, or any of your other allies on here, could answer the following questions;
1. Are you a rangers supporter?
2. Are you a bigot?
3. Have you sung bigoted songs?
95% of Rangers supporters don’t actually have to answer the questions, because I already have their answers,
1. Yes
2. No, i’ve got friends who are Catholics
3. Well yes, but only for 90 minutes on a Saturday. Well ok, maybe in the pub before and after the game as well, but its just banter.
If one of you had any balls to answer question 2 honestly, I would actually be appreciative of that. Telling the truth can sometimes be difficult, but even if its not what I want to hear, I will always respect someones honesty. End of (ha ha ha).
September 23, 2011 at 1:39 pm
PaulMc
Gary, your comments here display a man low on tolerance. I did not bring up religion there, YOU DID. Neil’s major problems began with that interview, certainly people booed him before, but after it it became a common occurance across Scotland, especially bad at Ibrox and the death threats began from the Northern Ireland fans.
In the end it should not matter whether it is religious reasons, a perceived allegiance to a united Ireland team or (the pettiest and most pathetic of all) how he appears and acts. To hate someone, actually say you HATE someone for any reason shows an astonishing lack of empathy for fellow human beings. To say he or other Catholics bring these things upon themselves shows those who hold that opinion to be in denial of the cultural problems of this country.
That Neil Lennon has had to endure such malice and spite for so long is a stain upon our country and shames us all.
September 23, 2011 at 3:47 pm
gary kerr
Right Paul Mc, so now it is not about bigotry its about the word hate and to hate someone? So to call someone an little s*** and an irritant and to say you cant stand them is ok but to say I hate that person is deeply offensive. Also, I have been at pains to say that a lot of the hate for Lennon is based on him rather than his religion. You insist it is because he is catholic he is hated – and where did I say that catholics bring it upon themselves Paul – nope ready every post i have made on here and not said it once – should have gone to Specsavers?
Jimthetim – interesting statistic you have there about 95% of rangers supporters but be careful. Did you know that 67.25% of statistics are made up?
September 23, 2011 at 4:41 pm
PaulMc
Hi Gary. Have you aimed the comment about the abuse Nacho Novo received at Jimthetim? I made no such comment about the man, especially as I never had a problem with him. I have far more important things in my life than to go around actively hating people who just happen to play for the rivals of my favourite football team. I don’t have the energy.
Bigotry and hate are completely intertwined, anyone living in our country (I presume you, like me, are Scottish) must surely realise that.
You say that you have been at pains to point out most of the hatred directed at Neil is based on him. Well if that is the case then there are some seriously deranged individuals in Scotland. I can understand religious bigotry (as sad as it is) for the reasons behind attacks, but to have had over ten years of viscious abuse heaped continually upon a man as you and some others claim because Neil is either, arrogant, aggresive, ignorant or involved with Celtic? Come on! There are people in need of some anger management if that is the case.
I totally agree with you that Graeme Souness was hated by plenty of people outside Rangers. I was not one of them, I did find him arrogant, but that’s no bad thing in a successful sportsman. Graeme was never assaulted in the street or had death threats, bullets or bombs sent to him. There is a whole different level of hatred going on with respect to the level Neil experiences.
If, as you and some others say, this has nothing at all whatsoever to do with bigotry then why do the Police, and the Scottish government disagree with you?
My opinion is Neil’s interview years ago, coupled with his religion are major aggravating factors in this case. The biggest worry for all of us is what happens if this escalates? I worry that someone involved with either Celtic or Rangers is going to lose their life if people don’t start to take a step back from their emotions and try to enjoy the game again.
Hope you can keep enjoying the fitba Gary!:)
September 23, 2011 at 6:07 pm
Keith
Jimthetim, where do you want me to start?
‘silent partner Keith’ – I have a life and don’t wait with baited breath for your next rant
Nacho Novo didn’t get bullets or bombs sent to him but Celtic fans sang songs about wanting him to die in his sleep with a bullet in his head, his property was also vandalised
Yes you’re right about the butters who want to harm Lennon and that is disgraceful but the MAJORITY of Rangers fans hate/dislike him because he is obnoxious. That’s why there are a lot of us defending ourselves on this page, you are calling us racists and bigots for hating him and that is just not true
As for you questions, here are the answers:
1. Are you a rangers supporter? – Yes
2. Are you a bigot? – No, I not only have friends who are Catholics but I AM a Catholic
3. Have you sung bigoted songs? – Never
Keith
September 23, 2011 at 9:36 pm
Keith
Sorry – Nutters! ……. Bloody predictive text!
September 23, 2011 at 9:39 pm
jimthetim
Good God, i’ve just got back from a long weekend out of the country and this thread has gone mad. Keith, you sound sensible, but are obviously seriously confused. Catholic gers fans are indeed a rare breed, so rare in fact that I don’t even think they truly exist. Could I stand and watch my team, whilst all my fellow fans belt out their bile against my beliefs, I don’t think that is possible.
And as for you Garry, let me see if we can get one straight answer from you. In your opinion, what percentage of your fellow fans would you say are anti-catholic? Please try and answer the question as honestly as possible, bear in mind my previous remark about the public viewing of certain songs on TV for the whole nation to see. I for one have seen it many times with my own eyes.
September 26, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Keith
Jim, if I had a pound for every time I was asked that question I would be a very rich man
I follow a football team, nothing more, nothing less
I don’t care what my fellow fans sing because, and I know it’s a cliche and you mentioned it above, the MAJORITY of them who sing (or should I say used to sing) do it as banter to wind up the Celtic fans. Yes, there are many extremists who take it seriously but there are just as many on the Celtic side who sing about and support the IRA and the murderous activities they get up to. No matter how they try to justify it, murder is a mortal sin and as a Catholic that should offend you just as much as anything the Rangers fans sing about
This will be my last post on this thread as there is no point trying to change your mind but I’ll say it one more time…..Neil Lennon is hated/disliked by the vast majority of Rangers fans because he looks and behaves like an obnoxious ned, nothing more, nothing less. Accept it!
September 26, 2011 at 9:02 pm
Neil
Keith,
Do you need a passport to get into your world?
September 22, 2011 at 7:27 am
Keith
Eh? No you don’t need a passport, all you need is a life!
September 22, 2011 at 11:18 pm
dave
If sectarian and ethnic issues are non-starter for the disbelievers on here , why has application forms still got “what school you attended” and ask you “what religion you are”
I fail to see what this information is intended for , it should ask “is this person capable of doing the job”
I agree with some posts on here but not all , and it is prevelant in this country to be mocked and ridiculed for being a catholic. FACT. I dont practise my religion and can laugh it off , but it is something we have to deal with on a daily basis
September 21, 2011 at 6:29 am
gary kerr
eh they ask for schools and qualifications – like they ask for uni attended and degree etc – you can’t really say I have a doctorate in philosophy but I am not telling you where i got it or I have 5 highers but don’t ask me to tell you where i got them from. This is the definition of paranoid – most hr departments will ask people to complete a form stating race etc to protect them from accusations of discrimination etc – this is exactly the opposite of why you think they ask for this. Good God give this nonsense up.
September 21, 2011 at 1:31 pm
dave
Good god do you believe in that ?
To find out someones qualifications all you have to do is contact the scottish education department , they dont tell what school it was obtained in.
To say that they ask your religion to STOP descrimination is the exact opposite, I HAVE BEEN in a high powered job overseas for many years and as soon as I put my religion down in an application form back here my application is ignored , WHY.
I run jobs worth millions of pounds to the client and why is my religion of no concern to the continental company I work for ?
Why is it only this country that asks these questions ?
Yet again prejudices are blind and even the fact you ask and try to defend these application forms tells me all I need to know.
The bigotist , most sectarian nation in the world. Until you people wake up and smell the coffee then it will always be.
September 21, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Dave
I don’t think the claim “most sectarian nation in the world” stands up to scrutiny.
Think of the status of non-moslems in, say, Saudi Arabia.
Phil
September 21, 2011 at 4:26 pm
dave
And to put the icing on it,
Uni’s and colledges dont have faith schools to mind, bar the ones for priests and ministers
September 21, 2011 at 4:00 pm
iain
Questions or religion or ethnicity do not appear on application forms.
They appear on seperate slips and are used to monitor intigration and issue’s of diversity. How do you think for instance Phils favourite stat of occupational parity was discovered?
They are also generally taken in a separate envelope and their completion is universally optional.
If you are stating that only Scotland uses such systems to measure diversity then frankly I need to accuse you of being a liar. Sorry.
September 21, 2011 at 5:40 pm
dave
Yet again , what a lot a crap.
Every application I have filled in for the last 20 years have had these things in them , FACT.
Yet again we have some imbecile on here trying to tell me that what I have filled in is total bull.
These are facts yah stupid person , I havent imagined filling in these application forms , yet you are telling me that I am wrong ???????????????? is this the same as religious bigotry is not to be believed ??????????? yet again an idiot with a key pad
September 21, 2011 at 6:15 pm
iain
Why is a guy who runs jobs worth “millions of pounds” needing to fill in application forms anyway?
September 21, 2011 at 8:20 pm
Keith
Dave, you are so blinking paranoid I’m beginning to wonder if you are for real, these questions are asked in almost every job application form in Britain, also in most countries in Europe and USA and Canada.
I should know, I work in HR for a multinational
Have you ever thought that there’s maybe another reason you can’t get a job here???….Calling someone an imbecile, stupid person or idiot maybe shows the type of person you really are
September 22, 2011 at 12:21 am
Simmy
Dave I can’t accuse you of lying as I didn’t see the forms you filled in, though it does surprise me if this is the case.
I agree with Iain though, every job I’ve went for that I remember, I’ve been presented with a separate Diversity monitoring form (or something along those lines) whether it’s been going for a job or on a course.
I’m honestly surprised and saddened that someone would think this is in effect to prevent Catholics from getting jobs.
September 22, 2011 at 8:38 am
Garry Kerr
“I have been in high powered jobs overseas for many years…” ” I run jobs worth millions of pounds to the client……” followed by “these are facts yah stupid person…..”. Mmmm, do you think maybe you have not been considered for the “high powered” jobs here for other reasons rather than what school you went attended?
September 22, 2011 at 9:23 am
dave
and yes I do speak like this when I see or hear religious pregidice and when I am lied to. Most companies would like that in an individual ? but not if I am a catholic
September 22, 2011 at 2:48 pm
Keith
Dave, one last thing, if you’ve ever been to A&E at a hospital and they ask your religion, do you think you’ll get inferior treatment if you mention you’re a catholic??
Of course not, there’s a reason these questions are asked
Get a grip
September 22, 2011 at 11:41 pm
iain
Is the guy in that link the same Kevin McKenna who our Phil had to take to task for quite liking Scotland and being Scottish?
September 20, 2011 at 6:06 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
My response to Kevin’s fine piece was about choice and respect apropos national identity.
A position he acknowledged.
Good lad Kevin.
September 20, 2011 at 7:24 pm
Sebastian Melmoth
Im confused you said “we” in reference to the Irish immigrants who moved to Scotland.
But you are not Irish you were born in Scotland and you are Scottish.
September 20, 2011 at 2:48 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Therefore Richard Gough is Swedish and Andy Goram English.
Risible even for one of “The People”.
September 20, 2011 at 7:26 pm
Ian Ferguson
Sebastian,
I find this a strange attitude & it seem s to apply only to those of Irish descent.
Why not the same attitude towards the English & ethnic minorities who maintain their fore-fathers culture & traditions & consider themselves to be of that nationality, where-ever they live?
There are a lot of examples of this, the latest being Bougherra, late of Rangers, an Algerian International who is FRENCH by your definition, never heard any adverse comments when HE was on Algerian duty, except when he “missed his plane” of course.
The other aspect of this, is comments by others, he has “changed his name” NO, he has reverted to the original family name which was Anglisised.
Many in the Highlands & Islands have done this this in acknowledgment of the language & culture of their ancestors which they are proud to embrace and learn & keep alive.
It only seems a problem & worth nippy comments because Phil has gone back to his roots & has built a solid Irish cultural background in which to raise his family.
Wonder why that is?
September 21, 2011 at 9:52 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/plastic-paraguayans/
September 21, 2011 at 11:14 am
droid
rfc are not the only establishment in distress –
http://www.scotzine.com/2011/09/the-daily-record-apology-is-it-a-meaningless-gesture/
September 19, 2011 at 8:21 pm
droid
Phil,
what do you make of the August circulation figures?
Daily Record : 307,794 ; -7.14
The Herald : 48,629 ; -11.80
The Scotsman : 42,581 ; -7.71
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=47846&c=1
Are these figures sustainable?
September 19, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
By these figures I have more readers than the Scotsman.
Oh dear…
September 20, 2011 at 9:50 am
johndev
Great piece phil. Whats this rubbish about celtic not flying the union jack?? They have to and unfortunatly, they do Anyone who has taken the tour will have seen it. It is just out side the small window as you go down the stairs to the old press box
September 19, 2011 at 7:14 pm
william
Where is that broken Celtic crest when you need it?
Yesterday was a fantastic day but not just for the obvious reasons. Leaving aside the Rangers victory, it was nice to see both sets of fans enjoying the day, having a bit of banter and leaving all the “crap” away from the game.
It was a real boost to the day to see the sombreros and beach ball from the celtic fans. This added to the carnival atmosphere and set things up lovely for the greatest derby on eirth. surprisingly the football was of a high standard too, Rangers taking the lead, then Celtic fighting back and then a rangers victory by the final whistle. All in all a perfect day, even the fake £50 notes with Neil Lennons face on it and the guy sitting in the stand reading the financial times added to the occasions. There were 1 or 2 unsavory song from the cletic end but that should not really be allowed to cast a shadow over everything elses, personaly I think you should sing what you want as long as you dont complane about other people, but thats for another day.
The only other bad point of the day was seeing Kerry (the Barcalona of GAA lol) loose to Dublin, but sure you cant win them all.
A good start to the season, lets keep it this way.
September 19, 2011 at 2:30 pm
PaulMc
The cracked Celtic crest is being kept in reserve for when they lose to Ross County. I feel with the guts and determination this current team show it’s something well within their grasp.
Luckily for Celtic Kyle Lafferty seems to have went to the same goal scoring school as Fernando Torres and one of the linesmen needed a new pair of glasses otherwise the score could have been VERY embarrasing.
September 19, 2011 at 5:26 pm
droid
Aye William,
a remarkable victory in the face of such adversity, Celtic indeed demonstarted great Charity.
Hope everyone enjoyed their day.
I retain full Faith in the outcome at the end of the season.
September 19, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Simmy
Agreed, the atmosphere at Ibrox on Sunday was incredible. The back and forth of the score line made for great drama and showed the better side of the Old Firm and their support.
Even goes to show with the Lafferty disallowed goal that honest mistakes happen on both sides of the Clyde.
It’s a shame however that once people get away from the Stadium the trouble really begins, but as long as it’s not on camera what do the SPL care?
I can’t be the only one that doesn’t see the logic in early kick offs, people just end up in the pub earlier and blitzed by tea time with the whole night ahead of them. Less trouble from fans drunk at the game? In theory, but people shouldn’t be getting in if they’re that drunk anyway plus what’s to stop people having a drink in the morning anyway. I’d be interested to hear your views on timing of the games Phil, and do you think the Police and the SPL (or Sky?) should be thinking of a reform to the current set up? Cup games appear to be the exception to the rule, why should the league be any different?
September 20, 2011 at 9:38 am
jasbhoy
Yes William it was incredible atmosphere and there’s no doubt the best team won, but as usual you hear the so called offensive singing from the Celtic support and yet are deaf when it comes to the offensive singing from your lot? do you work for a Scottish tabloid by any chance?
September 21, 2011 at 9:30 am
william
This is the way it shouldd be, a bit of banter and a bit of crack.
I didnt hear the songs your talking about but if you write back and let me know what they were then I have no problem condemning them.
September 21, 2011 at 6:57 pm
jimthetim
Morning Liam, hope you had a good night last night. What an atmosphere, its great to see a game ebb and flow light that isn’t it Liam? Oh, come on now its just a bit of banter. No treble this year Liam, but its great for Scottish Football eh? Its not even the end of September and the mighty gers have been knocked out of three trophies already this season. But seriously, to all the gloating Billy Bhoys after Sundays game i’d remind you of an old chinese proverb. Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you might have to eat them
September 22, 2011 at 8:31 am
Simmy
You’re right Jim, and the banter I got thrown back at me on Wednesday after Sunday did make me laugh. Why? Because it was devoid of vitriol, bigotry and was done in the good old Scottish “Get it right up ye” way.
My friends in Green took it on the chin on Sunday and they returned in kind. Still top of the league mind
September 23, 2011 at 8:38 am
Patrick from the East
I have to laugh at the comments made that Scotland is not a racist or sectarian country. I would suggest that these comments are made by non Catholics who have no idea what it is like growing up a Catholic in this country. I am a 3rd generation Catholic, whose grandparents (on both sides) where born in Scotland. I am in my fifties, and still to this day, endure sectarian abuse, practcally on a daily basis. My job has taken me all over the UK and Europe, and I have never experienced sectarianism anywhere, except Scotland. It has not gone away, and is definately Scotlands shame. For some Protestants it is hard to accept that they are not ‘in charge’ anymore. It has got to stop, and denying it exists won’t help.
September 19, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Garry Kerr
Keep a diary for me and note the time, place and what anti-catholic insults etc you face everyday. My wife is a catholic and has never been treated this way once never mind on a daily basis. Be interested to see why this is happening to you.
September 19, 2011 at 5:41 pm
Mark
“sectarian abuse, practically on a daily basis” – That is just made up lies. I have a Catholic wife, 3 Catholic kids, was married in a Catholic Church and im not much younger than you. I can honestly say hand on heart that if my wife and kids were standing in front of you right now, they would tell you they have never experienced ANY personal sectarian abuse in their combined 90+ years they have lived in Scotland. NONE. Thwy might just be lucky. Or perhaps, unlike others, they dont go looking for it.
September 19, 2011 at 5:51 pm
David
Phil, being a journalist, I’d have thought you would have taken issue with McKenna’s misreporting of the charges relating to the man who assaulted Lennon.
And, if he can’t report the truth, but still wants to pass it off as being so, his credibility must be questioned.
September 19, 2011 at 11:05 am
Peter
When he gets sacked do you think he’ll be able to stay away from bigoted racist Scotland more than 8 months this time?
September 19, 2011 at 12:04 am
wmc
For the record that last post should have said “don’t” deserve to be attacked or threatened.
And for what its worth, I personally have no religious beliefs whatsoever. The grief religion causes throughout the world , Severely outweighs any benefits it brings. But that is only my opinion, Each to their own.
September 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm
Mark
At what point did the hatred of Neil Lennon change to being sectarian or racist. He never had any sectarian or racist issues when he first came to Scotland, yet all of a sudden, there is a wind of change.
If it truly is an Irish Catholic thing, then why didnt Martin O Neill have the same problems as Neil? What about Liam Brady ?
For the record though, as a Rangers fan, I absolutely and categorically condemn what he has to go through. No-one should have to put up with the rubbish he had last season. Its only a game and as someone else pointed out, if Neil was on “our” side then we would be loving his characteristics.
This recent labelling of Scotland is getting on my nerves. Scotland has never ever been more accommodating to all faiths. Sick of this “victim” mentality that exists and it actually acts as incitement.
September 18, 2011 at 10:49 pm
Garry Kerr
So just remind me, Souness was not hated? Yes he was by everyone who was not a Rangers fan because he was perceived as arrogant, smug, a poser, a big time Charlie and brought success to Rangers. A lot of fans outside Celtic Hate Neil Lennon cos they see him as exactly the same as Souness (without the success). The truth is Graeme Souness was a perfectly charming and intelligent man when I met him despite not wanting to like him. Neil Lennon by all accounts is a charming fellow but it his public actions that people judge him on. The bomb threats etc are abhorrent and the perpetrators should feel the full force of the law. But we really need to separate this poor persecuted Irish immigrant nonsense from human nature.
Oh and by the way, what a crass comment about the all Irish final and Rangers fans, the sport of football has no games where the fans all go along together in a happy family atmosphere. Rugby does, you could have used a Scottish Rugby game as an example but that would not suit your racist propaganda.
September 19, 2011 at 8:13 am
Taylor
I’m sure Neil’s a great guy who I would get along with famously. But I’ve never met him & can only judge him on what I’ve seen of him on TV & in the media over the years.
As a Celtic player, he quite rightly played out of his skin week after week & displayed his passion front & centre for all to see. Can’t fault this & wish certain Rangers player did the same over the years. But in some cases, this passion looked to opposition fans as a sign of disrespect, of arrogance or him being a dirty player.
Now when your a pivotal piece of one of the biggest football clubs in the country then Lennon’s style, which may have been the same as at his previous clubs, was broadcast to a much larger audience than previous. On top of this Martin O’Neil’s apparent failure to disciple Lennon when he did do something wrong. These are all valid reasons for not liking someone connected to a rival football team.
Also I find the anti Irish-Catholic line hard to swallow because of 2 points. 1 Scots & Irish are from the same genetic stock following thousands of years intermingling. 2 Scotland is an increasingly secular country with many who may decribe themselves as Protestant, Catholic or other Christian denomination not actually practicing or even holding the core beliefs than would identify them as such.
September 18, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Shiltrum
Hi Phil
As usual right on the money your link to the Guardian made for interesting reading I can only see a piece like that making Keith jump up and down a lot poor soul.Thanks for
laying out the editorial procedures and how it gets to the front/back page but for this to work everyone must agree surely which only goes to highlight the depth this problem runs.
Keep up the good work.
September 18, 2011 at 7:57 pm
Shiltrum
Phil
Tomorrows Daily Record I wonder if their so called chief sports editor will indeed be as contrite in print as he was making out on Your Call radio phone in on saturday (regarding their headline) should make for interesting reading wont hold my breath though
Hail Hail.
September 18, 2011 at 8:08 pm
wmc
Phil, Whilst I am in no doubt that there are people within the Rangers support that have issues with Mr Lennons religion, I also know that not everyone dislikes him for this reason. I for one dislike the man, I am a Rangers fan yet I am married to a Catholic, My kids go to Catholic school. Religion for me is not an issue. Neither is the fact that Mr Lennon comes from Ireland. My brother stays in Southern Ireland and I am a frequent visitor to his new home which I thoroughly enjoy. I still do not like Mr Lennon. I work with lads from all over Scotland and England listen to their views on this subject and it amazes me how many people dislike him and it is about his personality rather than his Religious persuasion in the most part. What happened to Mr Lennon last year was a disgrace, But the way your articles come across you would think it was the full Rangers support who were mailing him bullets or bombs instead of the 2 or 3 psychos that were doing. Not everything that happens to Neil Lennon is sectarian FACT.
Also what are your views on Celtic. A British team who will not fly a Union flag at their ground. Is this so as not to upset their Anti-British /Pro Irish support,A support who you come out and say are not made welcome in Scotland.
I doubt very much if you will post this Phil, but would love to see the response to these points.
September 18, 2011 at 7:19 pm
PaulMc
First things first, I am a Celtic fan. I am not anti British. I am not pro Irish (or anti Irish for that matter).
Why should Celtic fly a Union flag at Celtic Park? It is not required by law. They do fly the Saltire.
I agree that “2 or 3 psychos” have been responsible for the bombs, but it goes much further than that. Have you forgotten the torrents of abuse the man has taken at EVERY SINGLE AWAY GROUND IN SCOTLAND? The assaults on him in the street, did you forget those too? The vast majority of the Rangers fans chanting to him “What’s it like to live in fear?” did that somehow slip your memory as well? Perhaps you have also forgotten when he was attacked on the touchline at Tynecastle? Mr. Lennon is no saint, but he is most definitely more sinned against than sinning.
September 18, 2011 at 8:39 pm
james
You comment that Celtic do not fly a union jack as we are a british club. maybe we don’t but at least we pay our tax bills
September 18, 2011 at 9:57 pm
wmc
PaulMc, The events which you mention are appalling for MrLennon, Likewise those suffered by Nacho Novo, Like the majority of Celtic fans singing about him being killed in his sleep by the IRA or having his property vandalised.
I find it particularly strange that every away ground in Scotland is filled with Racist fans who bide their time till Celtic arrive and vent it all on their manager. A man who shared the same homeland and religion as Martin O’Neill, Yet was never physically attacked or singled out for the same treatment as Mr Lennon.
I think you will find alot of the hatred comes from his tasteless sense of humour and “winding up” of opponents and opposing fans, This and his criticisms and accusations of opponents and referees. In whole many see him as a ned and he rarely fails to dissapoint with his behaviour. This said he, Or anyone else for that matter , Deserve to be attacked or threatened.
On the issue of the Union flag, I think it is very peculiar that a club who take such a moral high ground on sectarianism cannot fly the British flag for fear of upsetting the very fans who like to shout about equality. The majority of Celtic fans are British. It says so on their passport, Yet they want to disregard this and show allegiance to another country, And a vast majority do so because they like to think they are like some sort of “Freedom fighters”.
Then we wonder how there is still a divide.
If you are born here and live here all your days, That makes you British in my eyes. No matter how many times you sing The Soldier Song.
September 18, 2011 at 10:04 pm
iain
Paulmc
How can you be taken seriously when you repeat the “what’s it like to live in fear” lie?
September 19, 2011 at 10:21 am
PaulMc
Iain, unless I was suffering from auditory hallucinations during that match then that is exactly what was being chanted by Rangers fans. Inside Ibrox. Towards Neil Lennon.
Or maybe you think they were chanting “Would you like to drink some beer?”
September 19, 2011 at 5:33 pm
iain
Yes Paul you may well be suffering from hallucinations (or being kind you have been dupped by the lies). The chant is a figment of the imagination of some of the more derranged Celtic fans.
I could of course confirm to you that it definately wasn’t “would you like to drink some beer” and remind you that the only remotely similar chant, which was in fact sung at that very point after the match was “No surrender Davie Weir”, but I fear I would be wasting my time. (in fact I fear I have reached the limit of allowable responces imposed by our host so you wont see this anyway)
September 20, 2011 at 6:01 pm
PaulMc
Iain, please, I know what I heard with my own ears, I think you may just not be prepared to admit to some sections of the Rangers support behaving in a truly disgusting manner that day.
September 20, 2011 at 11:44 pm
Simmy
Can anyone post a link proving this is what the Rangers fans sung? A video link perhaps?
September 21, 2011 at 10:33 am
iain
No they cannot, because the chant exists only in the imagination of the more deranged Celtic fans.
I see even Paul has downgraded the “vast majority” of Rangers fans supposedly singing it to “some sections”.
Progress I suppose
September 21, 2011 at 5:35 pm
PaulMc
Iain, my ears on that day did not deceive me. For the record I have heard Rangers fans singing “No surrender Davie Weir” and I am more than capable of discerning the difference. I don’t hate Rangers or their fans and do not try to find fault with everything they do. When either Celtic or Rangers fans are guilty of something I will voice my opinion on it. It’s sad that due to ancient prejudices so many people live their lives in a state of permanent mistrust of their neighbours. I refuse to live my life like that.
September 22, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Pat
There are elements of ante Catholicism and ante Irish Catholic racism in this great wee country of ours. Sometimes the elements can become a bit blurred and the two can sometimes meld into one. When I have been referred to as a “Mickey” so and so in the past, I feel that both my religion and the fact that I may have Irish roots are being disparaged. The person making that reference to me has no knowledge of whether I have Irish roots or not. They are certainly not referring to Billy Knox from the Shankhill Road in the North of Ireland.
With regards to the article in the paper that shall not be named, I stopped buying this rag many moons ago. Any thoughtful Celtic supporter should do likewise.
Phil, I don’t know what kind of specialised programs you could possibly have which can access archived articles from newspapers.
At the time of the break up of the old Yugoslavia when many lives were being lost and all sorts of atrocities were being committed, the front page headline and leading article was about a nun who had been arrested for allegedly stealing ladies underwear from a leading store.
It does not require a high intellect to see that that article was for the amusement of a certain part of their readership.
It would be great Phil if you could find this article and post it on your page. Perhaps it would let people see what this paper is about. If they are still buying this rag then this would perhaps help them re-examine why they are doing so.
September 18, 2011 at 6:29 pm
william
Dont change the subject Phil, celtic are just 2nd class, oh sorry that sounds bad I should say just 2nd best lol.
September 18, 2011 at 5:59 pm
PaulMc
Ah, William, your posts are becoming as predictable as they are boring. At one point I thought you may have had something worthwhile to contribute to any debate on this site, sadly you have proved to be more interested in juvenile insults and petty attempts at one upmanship. Do you have an opinion on The DR’s irresponsible headline or will you spout yet more drivel like “54 and counting”?
September 18, 2011 at 8:23 pm
william
Will you lighten up a bit. Its a joke ok, juat a friendly bit of banter nothing more. I have actualy came on here many times trying to voice an opinion or a contribution but I have been told not to by some of the other contributors and that I was not welcome. In this case I was trying to be a bit light hearted so take it in the way it was intended.
As for the DR story, I wasn’t really aware what the row was about as I had not seen it, my own opinion is that while I do not believe there was any hurt intended, I think it was in appropriate to use the word hate. I was brought up a Christian and I do not believe you should hate anyone. I dont hate Neil Lennon, I dont even hate Martin Mcguinnes or Gerry Adams (not that im sugesting Neil Lennon is anything like them). This was probably a crude attempt at a catchy headline whith out realising what they had actualy writen. Should it have happened, No. However It is not some anti- Catholic conspiricy.
Happy Now lol.
September 19, 2011 at 1:25 am
nutty
get a life phil, stop living in the past.
September 18, 2011 at 3:37 pm
Adam
Hi Phil
Having been a long time reader of your blog, I totally agree with your views on the roots of the resentment towards Neil Lennon. Also, Kevin McKenna’s article hits the nail right on the head. I think the older generations (I’m in my 20′s) have/had a ‘place-ist’ attitude with regards to the Scots-Irish. The presence of socio-economic parity, is a threatening thought for some. Neil Lennon to me is the embodiment of this.
I do disagree on the use of the term ‘racist’, regardless of the Scottish legal establishment’s judgement. I may be looking at this in rather simplistic terms, but the Scots and Irish are not separate racial groups in my opinion. Ethnic? Perhaps. Racial? No.
September 18, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Adam
Abuse based on ethnicity/national origin/citizenship/skin colour all comes under the heading of “racism”.
UEFA use this definition as do most legal systems-including Scotland.
September 18, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Adam
Hi Phil
I’m aware that the Scottish legal system uses racism as an umbrella term. However being someone of mixed race, I am still slightly uncomfortable with the incorrect definition that is used. Only my opinion.
I feel that one of the many reasons why Scotlands Shame has lasted so long, is due to the fact that there has been no mass migration to Scotland since the Irish famine. This is in stark contrast to England in the 50s and to an extent, Ireland (Dublin) more recently. If this had happened in Scotland I would doubt that the Irish community would have continued to be seen as the underclass, as the focus would have been on another ethnic group.
However at the same time I understand and agree with your underlying message – discrimination is discrimination.
September 18, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Matt
You’re instead of your in the opening quote there. Also, I spend a lot of time in Thurso and there’s plenty of hatred for Lennon up there. The media have given the impression that this harassment is acceptable and even funny or cool. As a result, young men all over the country are joining in.
September 18, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Sea_Warrior
I agree Phil with the majority of your comments re bigotry in Scotland etc but I profoundly disagree with your assertion that a rogue sub-editor overstepped the mark and got it wrong. For as long as I can remember the Daily Record has in my opinion not only exacerbated anti-catholic prejudice in Scotland by irresponsible journalism but has actually driven anti-Catholic bigotry. Their anti-Catholic reporting is quite simply paper wide in my view. If they can put an anti Celtic slant in any piece they will regardless of subject matter. If a picture of a criminal can be found wearing a Celtic top at some point that story appears on the front page! As I said – for as long as I can remember!
September 18, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Ralf
i just hope the players and managers behave themselves today and set a good example, they represent the biggest clubs in the land and should set an example.
Ally McCoist said he’ll go for a drink with Neil Lennon after the game no matter what the score is in todays game. Hopefully Neil will come out and be as sporting as well.
September 18, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Baptie Bairn
Phil,
I had a look ay your screen shot of the Record on twitter and my first impression was that it was a rather clumsy attempt at a joke at Rangers expense. The problem is that to use hatred of Lennon as part of a joke makes light of the situation and gives it legitimacy.
Glad to see your ‘death throes’ comment. Worth noting that a poll showed 90% of Scots back tougher action on sectarianism.
September 18, 2011 at 11:59 am
Strangely Brown
Phil, hopefully now everyone will understand who does what at a newspaper. The banner headline was a disgrace, however the fan who wrote the article didn’t write anything different from the times and others, save for some standard red top cliches. The sub editor and page editor plus the final decision night editor should all get their erchies felt for this. They try to legitimise hatred of a man and hatred of an organisation who are merely doing their duty in seeking monies due.
I believe we have someway to go yet as this volcanic style eruption of confusion and misunderstanding from the hoards who are being dragged from their intolerant mire into the free world. Their confusion rests with the fact that it is some of their “own” who are lambasting them and insisting they change. That doesn’t sit well with your common garden bigot and mentally challenged Scotsman. They cannot compute what they are doing is morally reprehensible, and whilst we have subs and seniors churning out that garbage from yesterday then they will never change.
For those deluded enough to pretend to think it is only averse coast problem then I give you Tynecastle, a wretched hive of scum and villainy (cheers Obi Wan!) and the chambers of upper society in Edinburgh whose feelings towards a particular faith and their ill-informed prejudicial belief that all Celtic fans are of that faith, are most certainly not feelings of equality and respect. Fife and further north you will find open hatred wherever you go, I will excuse Aberdeen for the most part though, they are just too cold sonthey don’t like anyone!
If RFC go into administration there will be civil unrest in this country and the main target of abuse will not be the moonbeam chaser who caused it, it will be Neil and indiscriminate attacks on anything green.
September 18, 2011 at 11:21 am
Dennis Docherty
Keith if you’re right why did they love Diouf the most obnoxious footballer to play in Britain
September 18, 2011 at 11:15 am
Keith
Thanks for asking that question Dennis, I was going to mention it in the last post but didn’t have the time to add more.
I believe Neil Lennon and Diouf actually have something in common.
Diouf was a bit of a liability for Rangers and didn’t kick a ball but he was liked by the Rangers fans because he wound you lot up and if you are honest I bet you love Neil Lennon that little bit more because he winds up the Rangers supporters.
September 18, 2011 at 7:26 pm
Kieran Gallagher
Celtic’s ban on Daily Record Journalists & photgraphers is long overdue…How much would they lose financially over the course of the season if this ban prolongs? (which I really hope it does..)
September 18, 2011 at 11:13 am
jamesy cotter
steven king grow a set and grow up your club are the problem not neil lennon.celtic fan ma erse.
September 18, 2011 at 11:06 am
andybhoy
Phil
the hatred in Scotland towards those of Irish decent or those of the Catholic faith is shocking and my family and I have suffered this first hand. I am a Celtic supporter through and through, introduced to them by my father when I was as youngster, he is a rangers supporter and so is my brother, strange I know, but this is were I don’t get it: I joined the Army as a young adult for employment and left Scotland for nearly 20 years. On our return to Scotland my family and I were tagged with the Irish Catholic badge who where not welcome. We were labeled due to the fact that we were all Celtic supporters and my youngest son having been born in Ireland and having an Irish accent was subject to abusive and sectarian behavior. I have came to the conclusion that the West and indeed the majority of Scotland is a backward sectarian country that will always persecute those of us who are from an Irish Catholic decent. We have only been back 4 years however when the opportunity presents itself my family and I will leave our beloved Scotland behind due to the backward thoughts of those who cannot see through their Orange Tinted Glasses. Great article as always. Thx
September 18, 2011 at 10:58 am
Samuel
Much as I agree with most of this article, I feel Phil missed a few opportunities.
He missed the opportunity to reach out and bring the decent Rangers fans in behind his “cause”/ and support his argument. The headline in the Daily Record must have offended decent Rangers fans and Rangers as a club, as much as it did Neil, Celtic and Celtic fans. By categorising all Rangers fans as bigots/racists, Phil missed a trick.
I also felt Phil missed the opportunity to put forward the legal case against the Daily Record. When it comes to inciting racial or religious hatred the media are not above the law. The Editors of the Daily Record should be facing charges over this irresponsible and at worst intentional incitement to cause racial and religious hatred. Yet Phil failed to deliver that other big whammy – perhaps it’s the old journalists union that stopped him.
Good piece Phil, but could do better.
September 18, 2011 at 10:51 am
Steven king
I agree with just about everything you say phil an I read the article in the guardian an it was also very well put … But my only question is this… We all know an have heard an seen what goes on with the rangers fans,an the idiots with there threats but there is a flip side , this isn’t as one sided as you make it seem… We ( I’m a Celtic fan) also have our own tribes of idiots granted we haven’t sent bombs through the post to any individual but we still have the IRA chants an the anti royalist songs an not forgetting the poppy day banners that still have gone un punished .it might only be a minority but it is still there . So we Celtic supporters still have to get our own house in order.. No point throwing stones at glass houses …
September 18, 2011 at 10:31 am
Andybhoy
Watch the film watergate and you will see exactly what the process is.
September 18, 2011 at 10:20 am
Gweedorebh07
Quality piece as usual
Hail Hail
September 18, 2011 at 10:17 am
The Bhoy
”maybe we should treat mccoist the same way lennon gets treated”
No we shouldn’t, we are way better than that.
September 18, 2011 at 10:17 am
jimthetim
Phil, great article, and as someone has already said, bang on the money. Except for one point. In my opinion, the vile outpouring of hatred would appear to be gaining pace, and its as bad as i’ve seen it following Celtic for over 40 years. However I believe that articles like this are what set you apart from the rest and any fair and right-minded person would surely find it an honest assessment of the current situation.
September 18, 2011 at 10:14 am
jason
Craig, you ain’t been out much.
I’m from the north of Scotland, and the anti Celtic / Irish racism is frequent.
This whole country is a bigoted hell. Underneath the surface Every rangers fan I have ever met is racist.
The mask always slips…
September 18, 2011 at 10:14 am
Keith
Just to clear something up Phil, the majority of Rangers fans hate/dislike Neil Lennon not because he is a catholic from Northern Ireland but because he is obnoxious.
September 18, 2011 at 10:11 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
I’m not buying keith.
The racist hatred of NL by a large section of RFC fans is now known across the planet.
To late for a cover up.
Too late for spin.
September 18, 2011 at 10:24 am
Keith
Of course you don’t buy it Phil, you’re a Celtic man and like the majority of your fellow fans you love nothing better than being a victim.
Of course there are idiots who are racists and bigots – on both sides – but the MAJORITY of Rangers fans can’t abide him because he acts and looks like an obnoxious ned.
He is an intelligent and articulate man and I warmed to him halfway through last season but he let himself badly down near the end of the season with his various idiotic antics.
No cover up or spin Phil, just the truth.
September 18, 2011 at 2:29 pm
Garry Kerr
Not buying? Nothing to buy Phil. It is true. As I said elsewhere,Souness was hated and I mean hated by most of Scottish Football outside of Rangers fan because of the perception of his type. Arrogant, smug, poser etc. Was it because of his religion? NO. Did he get beat up in the street NO Why? Because he did not go drinking in Byres Road. He kept in circles where the masses were not allowed. Do you think he could have gone into a pub in the west end and he would not have been targeted? Just tell me, why was Martin O’Neill not hated? Also, have a look at Rangers players arriving at Parkhead on you tube – sportingly applauded into the stadium?
September 19, 2011 at 11:01 pm
Andy
I’m starting to think you’re just at the wind up Phil. Not once have you answered the question on why Martin O’Neill wasn’t hated or targeted by the Rangers fans, is there a reason you’re just dodging the question?
MON won far more than Lennon’s won, and fits the bill for being abused by Rangers fans because we “all hate Catholics and that’s the only reason Neil Lennon’s hated”
So why does this Irish Catholic who managed Celtic not receive abuse from Rangers supporters? And why do fans outside of Rangers hate Neil Lennon with the passion displayed all round Scotland, when MON again received no such treatment? Are we, all of a sudden, the most sectarian nation on Earth? Or is the more logical conclusion that NL is an unlikeable character? The fact that he received death threats is deplorable and I sincerely hope they catch every last person involved in this bomb plot and lock them up for the longest time. This should go without saying but I feel the need to say this lest I be painted a “bigot” by those with half a brain cell between them.
Also sectarianism is about hatred between different sects of the same religion, so your comment regarding “non-moslems in Saudi Arabia” is inaccurate, at least in linguistic terms, although I concede it may be accurate in legal standing.
I have the strangest feeling we might not hear an answer on this one. I’m still to hear an answer on your fatuous piece on an ROI player signing for Rangers Phil; do you still reckon we’re all just racist to the core when the sad fact is that any civilised human being can’t abide racism or discrimination. Would you agree that this is as much to do with education and social standing as well. Cos I’ll bet you Joe Ned can barely spell Protestant or Catholic, let alone practice it.
To make my position clear, I am not even an atheist, as atheist implies a connection with religion, even through disconnecting from it, I cannot stand religion that is in my face, telling me I’m going to hell for something i do, kindly allow me to live my life as I see fit and I will reciprocate the gesture. People attempting to convert me get the shortest of shrift, Protestant or Catholic… or even Pagan come to think of it.
You speak regularly about Rangers and “racism”. I for one find the atocities of the IRA perpetrated in their own communities deplorable and find songs being sung in support of them at Celtic Park just as bad or worse than what goes on at Ibrox. Also to make my position clear on songs; sing what you like, doesn’t bother me, know why? Cos it’s a song, I may not like it, but I truly don’t care enough to let it bother me. Just do me a favour and please don’t try and fob me off with the old “it’s all about the Easter Rising IRA, it’s got noooothing to do with the terrorists” argument; there’s no point in lying; it too doesn’t survive the education debate, you’re not going to successfully argue that all Celtic supporters are Irish History majors.
September 30, 2011 at 12:27 am
Eddie Rice
Sometimes Phil, you hit the nail right on the head. Weel done.
September 18, 2011 at 10:06 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Thanks Eddie.
September 18, 2011 at 10:54 am
Steven doyle
Maybe we should treat mccoist the same way Lennon gets treated?
September 18, 2011 at 10:02 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
I hope you’re tongue is firmly lodged in you cheek…
The victimization of Neil Lennon these 11 years has been Scotland’s shame. NO ONE should have to endure that.
September 18, 2011 at 10:53 am
Craig
I agree with the majority of your points. However, this is not a Scottish problem, it is a west coast and central belt problem. I certainly see no evidence of this racism in the north east of Scotland.
September 18, 2011 at 10:02 am
dave
Craig you either dont follow football or do to away games , this is a fundamental scottish problem , Lenny got the same abuse at Queen Of tHE SOUTH , ARE THEY cENTRAL OR WEST, u people keep making exscuses and they all come back to one thing.
THIS IS THE MOST BIGOTED AND SECTARIAN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD
September 18, 2011 at 10:59 am
Garry Kerr
And he got this abuse at Queen of The South because they hate cos Scotland is anti-catholic? Why cant you understand, he gets it because people dislike him as a person. He is not a likeable guy.
September 20, 2011 at 7:46 pm
Simmy
I believe there may be people living in the middle east that would dispute that Scotland is the most sectarian country in the world.
September 21, 2011 at 10:31 am
Norrie S
Great piece, Phil. Bang on the money.
I sincerely hope you and others are right about the WATP mentality being in its death throes.
September 18, 2011 at 9:53 am
Logical Optimist
Morning Phil
Well said ! Particularily loved the last paragraph. Will be in Croker today and have the butterflies already. 70 mins of fierce passion and yet I ‘ll shake the hand of any Kerry supporter beside me if they win. Form is temporary class is permanent.
Logical
September 18, 2011 at 9:52 am