One of the common themes about memorials to the Irish famine across the world has been a distinct lack of politics or religiosity evoked within bronze, iron and stone.
Right thinking people look back at those awful times and they just see a humanitarian disaster and a criminal failure of government.
The latter aspect has been the subject of an apology from the British government on the 150th anniversary of the Irish famine.
The memorial that I envisaged when I started writing about the subject is something like that one Custom House Quay in Dublin.
There is nothing to suggest in the figures depicted what their ethno-religious background was or their politics.
These are just desperate starving people clinging to life.
I stated that a secular city centre memorial to An Gorta Mór was required and that it would be a good thing to counteract the anti-Irish racism there and in the West of Scotland generally.
The proposed Famine memorial by Glasgow city council is news worthy because of how the Irish famine has been viewed by some people in the city in recent times.
The “Famine Song” is a particularly nasty little racist footnote in the social history of this part of the world.
Rangers were unique in being a senior football club in Britain that did not have a Republic of Ireland play in their first team since the FAI had been officially recognised by FIFA.
The emotional contract seemed be that no one in the light blue shirt would stand under the Irish tricolour on international business.
The connection was clearly made. Here was a group of football supporters singing a racist song who just happened to follow a team that did not have any of the targeted nationality playing for them.
There was a time in late 2008 when I seemed to be the only journalist that was interested in flagging up these issues.
There were questions asked about it in Dáil Éireann and in the European parliament.
Eoin Ryan MEP visited Scotland in November 2008.
It was largely ignored by the Scottish media, I travelled from Ireland to cover the fact finding mission.
On Rangers message boards the legal experts from the Govan stand guffawed that the Famine song would ever be brought before the courts.
It was and a conviction resulted.
It was appealed to the High Court of Justiciary and the conviction from Kilmarnock Sheriff Court was upheld.
The Famine song, in Scots law, is racist.
There is no debate
This has been in case law since 2009 .
I am told that the Famine song has not been totally excised from the Ibrox songbook and appears to have come over on the TUPE bus.
Now that those awful events are in the process of being commemorated in an inclusive and respectful manner in Glasgow then I hope that we have heard the last of this racist ditty.
Those who defended the Famine song in 2008/2009 should re-consider their stance if they do not want to be characterised as defenders of racism.
Finally the “one side is as bad as the other” narrative is stripped away people outside Scotland are starting to learn the forensic truth.
I believe that the general acceptability of Anti-Irish racism in Scottish society back in the day and the absence of a Famine memorial in Glasgow are not unconnected.
The Irish in Scotland were a barely tolerated invisible ethnic minority.
Thankfully the zeitgeist has changed.
Of course some will squeal at the pain that equality is causing them.
The old days at the back of the bus are gone and they’re not coming back.
Feargal Dalton of the SNP in proposing the motion last month also stated that the sculpture should also remember the victims of the Highland Famine and those fleeing modern famines and who want to make Glasgow their home.
Moreover, the proposed memorial is not to recognise the migration patterns from the island of Ireland to Glasgow over the centuries.
Of course, those who now wish to row in behind this laudable project are very welcome to do so.
However, if they have a previous history in defending the Famine song then they must address that issue and do so publicly.
An apology for the offence caused to Glasgow’s Irish community would also be welcome.
Clearly any organisation now wishing to support the Famine memorial project cannot defend a song that mocks the victims of An Gorta Mór or their descendants.
Perhaps they should issue a statement to that effect, just to clarify matters.
Andy
Paul Mc – I don’t want to beat this to death but gay marriage is supported by the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Jewish Liberal Reform Shul, Unitarian and Free Churches as well as individuals from other denominations:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/religious-figures-meet-at-conference-to-back-plans-to-legalise-civil-gay-marriage-7906904.html
October 30, 2012 at 9:23 pm
PaulMc
Hi Andy, I wasn’t arguing over who did support gay marriage, more your choice of how to describe those who support heterosexual marriage.
You want people to support this, yes? Does labelling them as bigots help? My opinion is no, it only hinders.
Cardinal O’Brien is sadly lacking in diplomacy and compassion.
October 31, 2012 at 1:22 am
Mick
Andy, Brighton and Hove Albion ‘fan’. I,like many fellow Celtic fans have long since realized that the RC religion has nothing to offer. I, unlike those from the SW of the city absolutely respect the rights of others to follow the religion of their choice. Although I have a deep dislike of organized religion, it is not my place to criticize others for their beliefs. Contrast my position with those who ‘defend our traditions’ and puzzlingly insist that the SW club’s manager wear a suit. Religion is discussed only on your sites. No pasaran.
October 30, 2012 at 6:33 am
Andy
Paul Mc – O’Brien wishes gays and lesbians to be treated as second class citizens http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/04/cardinal-kieth-obrien-gay-marriage and has described gay marriage as akin to slavery.
He also believes that a celibate German OAP has the right to dictate to Scottish and other women what they may or may not do with their bodies.
The fact that he does all this as the leader of minority faith attempting to impose his bigotry on the majority who do not belong to his congregation simply makes his bile even more repulsive.
October 29, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Andy
p.s. this is O’Brien’s pastoral message which also seems to propose a new theocratic order for these Islands:
http://www.scmo.org/articles/cardinal-obrien-calls-on-politicians-to–sustain-rather-than-subvert-marriage.html
October 29, 2012 at 8:05 pm
PaulMc
Well, I defend your right to oppose Cardinal O’Brien’s views. I am all for equality and tolerance. Remember that word, tolerance, many people talk of it but fail to understand it. It is a most dangerous path to tread to label people with those views as bigots.
Catholicism may be a minority Christian faith in these islands, but worldwide it is enormous. Also try to remember that most Christians, Jews and Muslims will hold similar views. Many among them are women, are they also bigots and misogynists?
People wishing to extend the debate will achieve nothing by labelling these very large sections of society in such a way. Much more will be gained by extending the hand of friendship. In the end if agreement cannot be reached then people will vote, democratically for change, or with their feet in the case of organised religion. When the big decisions come we still have to live with each other, and that is when tolerance truly comes into play.
October 29, 2012 at 10:26 pm
Andy
Paul Mc – Cardinal O’Brien is a virulent homophobe and misogynist.
October 27, 2012 at 5:25 pm
PaulMc
What makes the Cardinal a homophobe?
I’ve never heard him referred to as a misogynist either, can you explain your reason for such a label?
October 29, 2012 at 1:53 pm
droid
Can people give this historical event it’s true and proper label as the Famine Genocide / Holodomor of Eire.
Anything else is minimisation and therefore wandering into the mein kampf of revisionism and denial.
October 26, 2012 at 1:18 am
jomac
Andy.
)
Your clutching at straws.
sadly your new club is still riddled with bigots as you no fine well.
You bast***ise any new song celtic sing such is the depth of the hatred you have against us.
Next time you go to ipox were you pay halfprice or get a freebie try opening your ears and not your mouth and come back and post an apology to Phil
October 26, 2012 at 12:13 am
Andy
Jomac – I am Brighton supporter not a Bluenose. My post was highlighting the double standards of on-going racism among a section of Celtic supporters which was proven in a court of law and much like Cardinal O’Brien’s disgusting bigotry is never criticised on this blog.
October 26, 2012 at 8:29 pm
PaulMc
What is Cardinal O’Brien’s bigotry then?
October 26, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Paddybhoy
2 great articles Phil, really enjoyed them.
Keep Digging Away Mate!
October 26, 2012 at 12:12 am
beejer
Why are we surprised by British genocide in Ireland ,the empire was built on that very same model I.e. military/technology superior ,import agents of the crown ,control local resources and starve them out
October 25, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Andy
As ever not a word about any of these racists…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13361478
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/293678-rangers-players-targeted-in-twitter-racist-abuse/
October 25, 2012 at 10:30 pm
PaulMc
You are comparing two racist idiots now, thankfully, very much in the minority in the Celtic support and trying say that this is equal to the thousands among supporters of The Rangers?
October 26, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Beeegajay
Thanks Phil for 2 great articles and Phil for his earlier comment. During the foot and mouth crisis in the UK I was continually struck by how beautiful and fertile much of rural Ireland is. How fortunate the people of this island are to have such bounty. It is truly criminal how so many were forced into starvation and exile under the might of Empire. This is an opportunity for commemoration and reconciliation in a city which should strive for a better future.
October 25, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Andrew
Re the point that some have tried to make, that singing only certain parts of the Famine Song isn’t racist. Singing any lyrics of a song implies you agree with the general tone of that song. I’ve never heard anyone try to defend singing the Horst Wessel song with ‘I wasn’t singing the Nazi bits’.
October 25, 2012 at 7:41 pm
Outsider
In reply to Paul mc :-
Well said Ben. We have driven that element out of the Celtic support, fans of oldco or The Rangers still make excuses for the vile bigotry emanating from the stands at Ibrox.
What sectarian songs are sung at ibrox? Tell u what. U tell me what the song is, and why it is sectarian and I will honestly tell u when I last heard it sang.
I still feel that the anti-sectarian laws introduced recently was an anti-football fan law and does nothing to tackle any real problems in society. To me football songs are ment to be offensive to the opposition. That’s kinda the point. Where is the line to be drawn? One mans sectarian is another mans political. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
October 25, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Ben mcginlay
This is getting tiresome.
October 25, 2012 at 7:08 pm
PaulMc
Just about anything from the songbook. Hello Hello, The Famine Song(both sung home and away).
Rangers fans have been arrested and charged THIS SEASON for bigoted singing and chanting. Or maybe the news reports about those events were made up?
I sure with you being a fan you won’t have heard of any of this, or even believe it when you read about it. I look forward to your “Naw they wurny!” reply.
October 25, 2012 at 7:27 pm
Outsider
Racism does not exist within the Scottish game, according to Kilmarnock manager Kenny Shiels. (Record)
Headline from the bbc website. An Irishman no less.
October 25, 2012 at 6:05 pm
PaulMc
Did he? Wow, maybe we can get him to comment on the Middle East next and then that will be sorted too.
October 25, 2012 at 7:19 pm
Phil
There was no famine in Ireland. The soil is too fertile and anything can be grown on it no matter how little attention is given to the planted seed. If someone wants to see first hand the true and exact definition of a famine, just take a look at parts of Ethiopia. The land is totally barren and nothing more than a sandy dust-bowl. When crops fail on that land, nothing else will grow on it. Now compare that to Ireland’s landscape, even 150 years ago. Apart from the soil, the seas and rivers were full of salmon and trout. Rabbits were plentiful and deer very common. The people were threatened with eviction if they were caught eating meat. There was dozens of ports all around the Irish with boats laden with foods for export. It was not a famine, but genocide and mass ethnic cleansing. Check http://www.jimcorr.com for the real story on the so-called Irish famine.
October 25, 2012 at 5:09 pm
PaulMc
It’s very hard to make something grow when it’s being killed by disease. Look up potato blight please.
October 25, 2012 at 7:30 pm
Neil
Is it me or are there loads of buns coming on this site now??
Obsessed with Rangers they ask??
No! they’re obsessed with getting the truth
Why?
Because they won’t get it on their own sites or MSN
October 25, 2012 at 3:57 pm
tambutnotbam
Phil,
I raised the subject and asked the question of you last Friday 19-10-12.
I realise that you cant get into a running discussion with posters but the emerging Duff and Phelps scandal is on the move again.
I asked last Friday on here but got no response.
However, Mark Daly indirectly answered my question in connection with Duff and Phelps and their seemingly unlawful handling of the Administration of Rangers Football Club on BBC TV last night.
I believe Mark knows much-much more than the detail he felt he was able to go into LIVE on air last night.
So feet up popcorn in Phil.
Strap yourself down.
October 25, 2012 at 9:02 am
The Wallace
Duff and Phelps knew all about Craig’s deal with Ticketus. The wee sly boots recorded a conversation with David Grier. I laughed fit to burst, this is no longer a story it is a saga of ‘War and Peace’ proportions. I hope your getting your Downfall Volume II started. Too much too hope it would be ready for Chrimbo, that and the Broons you wouldn’t see me for weeks.
On a sad note Michael Marra God rest. Hermless.
October 24, 2012 at 9:14 pm
Tony
But I digress. My point got lost in the clamour to put it across. I will try again.
What is difference between, “the famine is over why don’t you go home” and “go home ya Huns”?
Why can spitting image release a song years ago titled “I’ve never met a nice South African” and it be considered humour, when the famine song is considered racist.
To me the context of something needs to be considered. For example an African American rapper can use the “n” word to refer to himself. But I wouldn’t dream of using it on reference to him.
People are now choosing to be offended by anything and everything. Frankie Boyle (not everyone’s cup of tea) cuts his humour close to the bone, personally I don’t think he’s funny, but Scottish man inventing copper wire fighting over a penny could be construed as racist by the easily offended as it uses racial stereotypes.
Do you not agree, football songs are ment to upset the opposition. Be it “easy, easy, easy” when five up, or yelling “go home ya Huns” under similar circumstances. It’s the rivalry that makes the atmosphere.
90 minute bigots is a term I keep hearing. I agree. the vast majority leave it at the gate on the way out the stadium. The ones who don’t should not be considered football / rangers / Celtic fans. They should be considered idiots and those be the one targeted by any law. Not the ones who are trying to get one over on the opposition for the duration of a game.
While I’m at it…. The zombie banner… Fairly humorous in my opinion and not in the slightest offensive. But people (on both sides) are looking to be offended and to be frank the law should be telling them to get a life. It’s football. It’s a game. It’s banter. It’s funny. And if it goes beyond that… It’s wrong.
October 24, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Ben mcginlay
Big difference, go home a Huns is sang to the Oldco support when we beat you at Celtic park.(Banter)Famine song is a whole different ball game. And you know it so called Tony.
October 24, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Neil
You can feel your pain Tony, go home ya hun is not registerd as a secterian/racist song by the law of the land and is not banned by UEFA either.
Q What Rangers songs are banned because of the above?
Q Name one Celtic song that has been banned by law and UEFA
October 25, 2012 at 3:43 pm
Through and through
Pointless to even try to debate with someone who has to question the difference in said songs.
October 25, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Tony
Is the law never wrong?
Farmer shoots burglar breaking into his farm… Farmer charged. To me this is wrong.
Just an opinion. But I believe the law may be wrong on this one as well.
I have never heard an actual religion mentioned in a song at ibrox. Yet I know some from parkhead that says “soon there will be no Protestants at all” and another about “roaming in the gloaming, Roman Catholics”. So in my opinion it’s not rangers fans that bring up religion.
October 24, 2012 at 1:03 pm
PaulMc
Nothing so fanatical as a convert. You have been infected by the disease all too prevalent at Ibrox.
Those songs you mention are never sung at Celtic Park now. Your ignorance on this subject is as ridiculous as your opinion on racism.
October 24, 2012 at 6:23 pm
Ben mcginlay
Another one from the Coops and walker mould.Sad sad peepul. You should be more worried about your fledgling club..keep repeating the rubbish. You are worse than the the bigots who sing the songs. You try to dilute the contents of the lyrics to make them sound like banter. Celtic fans in the past(including myself) have sang unsavoury songs, but this has all but disappeared now. And our stadium is all the better for it.
October 24, 2012 at 6:33 pm
PaulMc
Well said Ben. We have driven that element out of the Celtic support, fans of oldco or The Rangers still make excuses for the vile bigotry emanating from the stands at Ibrox.
October 25, 2012 at 1:13 am
Mac Tomas
Tony
I felt compelled to address your “Famine Song” observations. Firstly Fenian is not necessarily a reference to Catholicism, but it is most certainly a reference to the Irish. If you call someone a Fenian B****** you are gratituously insulting their ethnicity just the same when call an African a Black B******. How can you not see that ?. Furthermore the Famine Song is, was sung in the context of a football stadium (where you should be singing football songs), The Stadium belonged to the former Rangers incarnation which for “Most of its History” promoted the myth of the Protestant Acendancy through its specific exclusion of Catholics. The singing of that song & the “proud history” of the former Rangers cannot be ignored. The inhumane sentiment behind the ‘banter’ was fostered by the clubs traditions. Picture Football fans singing on mass a song telling Africans or Asians to get back on the boat. Is that banter ?
You state your an ex catholic now supporting sevco, give yourself a coconut ! who cares ?. What has that got to do with anything ?. Although it must be said the fact that you can ignore the proud racist history & bile, & laugh it off is a matter for your own concience.
There is also the question of Scots Celtic supporters supporting Ireland. I’m Scottish of Irish decent & should Scotland play Ireland at football I’ll support Scotland as would all the Celtic fans I know, I’ll not deny however it would be slightly conflicting. However some Celtic fans do see themselves more Irish than Scottish just as some Irishmen born in Ulster see themselves as more British than Irish. Such is life. That tends to be a condition (tradition) of immigrant communities all over the world.
October 24, 2012 at 1:02 pm
PaulMc
Your points are 100% correct, however, trying to get someone like Tony to recognise them is like trying to get a citizen of the USA to accept Communism as a valid counterpoint to their society.
October 25, 2012 at 1:19 am
hang 'em high
poor tony ,brother phil just blew you away with 20 words,all this after you got your wee dig in at being a bun fae a catholic background,you deserve tae go tae IBROX every other week tae spew yur bile sonny boy ,enjoy the clyde game
October 24, 2012 at 12:23 pm
jomac
Tony.
Being an engineer myself I can assure you the bigotry and favouritism is still rife.
Obviously with you being a follower of the deid club you have been sheltered from it.
October 24, 2012 at 11:40 am
Tony
So Phil. Few quick points and questions.
If its a Northern Irish Rangers supporter singing the famine song, is he an anti-Irish racist. Or is he extracting the urine out of the Celtic supporters who align themselves to the Republic of Ireland rather than support the country of their birth. Even using the grandparent rule.
Oh and what does it make me, raised as a catholic until old enough to say religion is all a lot of crap, who has had a season ticket for ibrox since attending secondary school. The PE teachers face was a picture the first day I came out the dressing room in rangers top and shorts. Think he may even have swallowed his whistle.
And I have never felt offended by any singing at a rangers game ever.
On your website you refer to yourself on occasion as “this Fenian” are u meaning catholic? If so why not say so. Or do u agree that Fenian is something else and therefor NOT sectarian.
Oh and Phil, I have your book, iwas given it a couple of weeks ago by my younger brother. Incidentally, his season ticket is at parkhead. We’ve even given each other lifts to old firm games. Shouted all sorts at each other. And got back in the car where the loser has to endure 20 miles of what can only be described as dogs abuse. Are we sectarian? He calls me, the catholic older brother, a big hun on a regular basis. It’s a slagging. Not a sectarianism. And when u call it sectarianism or racism or whatever. Highlighting the singing of songs where catholic rangers fans and Protestant Celtic fans sing against their own religion is not highlighting sectarianism. It’s highlighting banter.
On another issue. I always put my catholic school on my application forms. Never bee out a job. Work in that hotbed of sectarianism of engineering. Never been offended. Had lots of banter. But never seen any form of discrimination in the workplace.
By the way, your books not bad. Very one sided. Can tell its not about the story it’s about wanting rangers dead. But some good information hidden within the hatred.
I’d bet against u publishing this comment. But hey-go, u never know.
October 24, 2012 at 9:26 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
A quick answer:
ANYONE who sings the Famine song in Scotland is breaking the law.
The good guys won this one.
Deal with it.
October 24, 2012 at 10:00 am
Mick
My understanding of this particular ditty that is belted out with gay abandon by the Copeland Road is that it was written by an Irishman imploring Irishmen of the diaspora to come home because the famine’s over. Change that one word from ‘come’ to ‘go’ and the entire meaning is changed. This is not banter or a wind-up, it is racist. The court’s agree but yet the hoarde still sing it with impunity.
I for one am glad that I am not defined by hatred towards others, a trait that is prevalent in the southwest of the city and excused by the MSM bam pots.
October 24, 2012 at 2:39 am
Descendantghirl
Take off your blue tinted glasses and resd what’s in front of you..The Memorial is for everyone who died in the famine and if you checked, a lot of non catholics died too..!!
October 24, 2012 at 2:26 am
kiza
Well said,it’s a tradegy that encompassed all people of the island of Ireland,north and south of both Protestant and Catholic as well as other religions. A point that was well made by the Rangers support group,Rangers Till I Die,Northern Ireland.
In fact it has been suggested that the Orange Order lay tributes at the statue in honour of Orange brethern from Ireland and all others that died during this famine. A very noble and honourable suggestion.
October 25, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Ozzy1888
Phil i feel your peeing against a tornado,trying to convince the likes of Ian,I strongly suspect he’s still living in the 17th century with his idea of what makes a bigot !
October 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm
check12
Do you see the various Rangers fans’ groups coming out and supportim and pledging to the memorial as a positive move forward, Phil?
October 23, 2012 at 3:22 pm
Mr Balance
Phil,
You begin your piece by stating “One of the common themes about memorials to the Irish famine across the world has been a distinct lack of politics or religiosity evoked within bronze, iron and stone.” So why would deliberately go about pushing your political and religious views into this area?
October 23, 2012 at 3:18 pm
The Wallace
A very good piece Phil. I see the project is doing well and is at least one pair of hands that I trust.
To pick up on what some others have been saying. I get confused by ‘protestant’ and ‘protestant school’ tags. The majority of non Catholic state schools in Scotland are officially designated as Non Denominational not Protestant, I honestly know of no state run schools that are officially designated Protestant, but I may be wrong on this point. The vast majority of my friends who did not attend Catholic school also did not attend any kind of religious service unless they wanted to get a football game for the local BBs or the headmaster said a prayer at assembly. They were all aware our religious designation, but did not have a clue what kind of Protestant they were, for it is a broad church if you will pardon the pun. I saw and see little or no evidence of baptism or christening ( a basic tenet of Christianity) in most cases. But each to their own. My point here is that the majority who claim Protestantism in Scotland have thrown out the Christian part and just kept the protesting against the Church of Rome part. The few people I do know,(I hate this phrase) ‘on either side’ who attend Church or Chapel regularly and with true faith are truly appalled at the sectarianism that goes on and see it in fact as anti Christian. I am not knocking anyone’s faith, but to use a faith, which the majority are not even a proper members of, to support basically discrimination ( I can’t even say racism because DNA tests have shown that the British Isles are of the same racial ingredients, barring some small local anomalies, Orkney Islands, Shetland and parts of the Midlands of England), against a group of people that basically support a different football team is a very sad state of affairs.
I find it sad on the blue side in particular that their religion is defined not as a follower of Christianity, but as protesting against a different viewpoint of the same belief in Christ. I don’t want to be antagonistic to anyone who has any real religious belief, but let’s stop kidding ourselves, this continued anti Catholic and anti Irish feeling in Scotland is just plain hatred that pretends to be based in different view points of a religion.
October 23, 2012 at 3:14 pm
keddaw
There is an enormous difference between people “defending a song that mocks the victims” of a tragedy and defending people’s right to mock the victims of that tragedy (while roundly criticising them for doing so). I tend toward Voltaire when it comes to such things.
Also, just because we passed an incredibly anti-liberal law does not make it “debate over”, far from it, it is just the beginning of the fight to give us some protection from our political masters who aim to deem any politically incorrect speech as offensive and so oppress the working classes. It will be interesting to see how Europe view someone in the street singing this song (a whole different proposition than a stadium full of people) and how it compares to Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Protection from harassment, prevention of incitement to violence and prevention of intimidation are reasonable limits on free speech. Whether the famine song clears any of these hurdles is not an interesting discussion, whether calling someone a hun, a fenian, a proddy, a bead rattler, or whatever, now comes under the purview of the legal system very much is.
October 23, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Ozzy1888
Masonwalker must be living on another planet,having been to ipox on a number of occasions,I’ve had to sit and listen to the bile and hatred coming from the stands,to suggest its from the few is wrong and burying their head in the sand.keep up the good work phil,your a legend !
October 23, 2012 at 12:46 pm
andy murray
Scott, I think you will find that the term cream bun has been replaced with zombie!
October 23, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Jhimbhoab
Anyone of us who had to fill in an application form ( usually for a job ) and had to disclose what school you went to…..has been a victim of racism…..they dont need to know what school you attended to attain a national certificate that is standard throughout the education system…… but we all know why its on those applications………and should be removed.
October 23, 2012 at 11:57 am
Ian
JhimBhoab,
You hit the nail on the head for me. Examples of what you describe are clearly discrimination, whether on grounds of religion or race and are totally unacceptable. This is what we need to tackle in our society, not continually take mock offence at what a few thousand football supporters sing at a football match.
As I said earlier, football fans go out of their way to offend. Rangers fans are no different from any others, including those following Celtic.
“90 minute bigots” or “90 minute racists” are a completely separate issue from examples of actual bigotry and racism in Glasgow and should not be confused. Rangers fans are largely protestant, Celtic fans largely catholic. That fundamental fact means that each will try to wind the other up on sectarian grounds, and this will happen until the end of time.
Using the “sticks and stones” principle, let’s stop being offended by inappropriate singing at a football match and start dealing with any real underlying examples of racism or bigotry in Scotland.
October 23, 2012 at 1:02 pm
wastrel
simply do what I do, leave those questions blank! which school anyone attended is utterly irrelevant as to whether or not they are qualified to do a job!
October 23, 2012 at 5:01 pm
Ian
I have never understood the hysteria behind the singing of The Famine Song. As far as I’m aware, Rangers fans have only sung a very small portion of that song. Regardless of how offensive any other parts of that song may be, we can only damn the Rangers support on the part they do actually sing.
Rangers fans have long stated, and I have to say it seems obvious to me, that the lyrics being sung are not a mockery of the famine itself but rather an unsubtle dig at multi-generational Scots who continue to align themselves more closely with Ireland than the country of their birth.
These are football fans who, like all others, look for a way to offend their greatest adversaries. Whilst I would not for a moment deny the existence of racism in Glasgow, not all anti-Irish by any means, I don’t think the lyrics being sung by Rangers fans are evidence of this.
On the main subject, I am extremely pleased that a fitting memorial to all victims of famine looks to be going ahead.
October 23, 2012 at 10:56 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
The Famine song is illegal.
High Court of Justiciary June 2009.
Debate over.
Even singing “a small portion” makes reference to the other words-that is the ruling of the court.
Anti-Irish racism is what defined a large minority of the club that used to play at Ibrox.
Perhaps Sevco will go in a new direction.
A Republic of Ireland player for the first team would be a start…
October 23, 2012 at 11:52 am
Ian
Phil, the song’s offensive to some, I get that. The misguided attempt at humour has been completely missed by many. Let’s not forget though that there is also offensive singing takes place among the Celtic support, particularly at away games. Is it really any different from some of the crass songs sung by Man United against Liverpool or vice versa? Or Arsenal v Tottenham?
Are Rangers fans bigoted or racist because the sing The Famine Song or being up to their knees in fenian blood? Are Celtic fans terrorist supporters because they sing about the IRA? You know maybe I’m naive, but I don’t believe they are.
I know I’m a stuck record, but I’d forget about what goes on during the 90 minutes of a football match. Crack down on violence and hate crimes outside the stadiums, deal strongly with cases of actual bigotry or racism, invest in better teaching of tolerance and inclusion in schools.
These are battles we can win. Preventing football fans from causing offence isn’t.
October 23, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
The High Court dismissed the “misguided attempt at humour”.
The song is racist,the sentiments are racist and if you sing it or defend it you are a racist.
What is chanted at football matches can also be hate crimes.
They can also be the warm up act for the next Jason Campbell…
October 23, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Ian
For me Phil, you try to combine different issues to somehow appear to be one and the same. Jason Campbell is evil scum. No Rangers fan, probably outside those within his family and those who fear him, will disagree.
Do you really believe that singing a few iffy songs at a football match will turn people into cold ruthless killers? Please!
And I absolutely disagree that people who sing bigoted or racist songs at a football match are necessarily racist or bigoted. I simply cannot understand that logic. Can I put my hand on heart and say that I’ve never sung offensive songs at a football match? No, I can’t. However, as a senior manager, can I honestly say that I have never been interested in someone’s race or religion, treated anyone differently because of it or let it affect any recruitment I have carried out? Absolutely. And I believe that the vast majority of the Rangers/Celtic support would be the same.
I maintain that we’re focusing on the wrong people if we’re trying to eradicate the problems in our society.
October 23, 2012 at 2:30 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
All of the nice non-bigoted non-racist folks like yourself singing bigoted and racist songs affirms and authorises someone like Jason Campbell.
He was acting out the lyrics of the “Billy Boys”.
He felt part of a tribe that agreed with his desire for fenian blood.
October 23, 2012 at 2:39 pm
Ian
Phil, Campbell’s a lunatic. He’s not a lunatic because he’s a Rangers fan. A quick Google found details of Gary Rodgers who brutally killed a Rangers fan. Was Rodgers crime a result of singing on the Parkhead terraces? No, of course not.
I’m not denying that there’s a lunatic fringe associated with the Rangers support as with other teams, and it’s this minority that needs to be targeted. These people of violence and intimidation are the real bigots and racists. Giving someone a criminal record because they call someone a Hun, or locking someone up because they sing a stupid song isn’t ever going to solve the problem.
October 23, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Lisbonlion72
Inclusion in schools Ian,or reworded ….maybe no catholic schools?Plenty of tolerance taught in catholic schools!If I’m wrong them please accept my apology!
October 23, 2012 at 5:20 pm
hang 'em high
yes eddie copeland read it again & try to understand the inclusion of more than 1 ethnic specie, maybe you should buy a copy of “downfall” and try to read it here here
October 23, 2012 at 12:27 am
jomac
Phil.
I did read your blog thoroughly.
the point I was trying to make… the hatred they have is getting more intense and wish I was in the position to take my kids away from it.
When their titles are stripped I fear bedlam will prevail.
October 22, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Scotjolly
Hi – The hatred is getting more intense because the Sevconians have had such a beating and are getting ripped to bits on all news threads and from the authorities. As you say, bedlam approaches. The intensity is going to be at fever pitch when the titles are stripped, the ebt result is announced and the BDO people take back some (“recently purchased assets”) and put them up for public sale, so as to recover the true amounts of money for the creditors pot. That Creditors pot could include Craig Whyte, as he has guarantees and the correct legal promissory notes in place against those assets – This, added to everything else would result in — ARMAGEDDON !!!!!
Can’t wait -
October 23, 2012 at 2:10 pm
hang 'em high
well put and well said brother phil ,
October 22, 2012 at 9:25 pm
jomac
Phil, hailing from glasgow I can understand why you left.
In work yesterday I was asked why I found the famine song offensive as I supposedly only new one verse .
Why would I want to read into any more verses of a perverse chant.
Finished the argument off with don’t yous realise when singing your dirge 1 in 4 that stand next to you at ipox will be going back to Ireland
)
October 22, 2012 at 9:12 pm
JB67
In this now politically correct world ,it now fashionable to be offended, it is now getting to the stage where people are going to football scared to open their mouth, football is a working class game and that stirs pejudeces. Football fans the world over sing offensive songs not because they deem them to be true but to rile opposing fans.Plenty of people from sevco claim some of your comments deeply offensive.
October 22, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Scott
I welcome the official rangers fans groups wanting to donate and help with this memorial.I also wait for the day that the Protestant people of Scotland are not subjected to racist and bigoted treatment , where the word Hun is seen as acceptable.In the main the word F to describe Catholics and the P word to describe pakstan have stopped.Maybe you can help get this anti-protestant stuff that is rife in Scotland stopped…now that would help break down some barriers,,,,what’s the chances??????
October 22, 2012 at 8:28 pm
Ben mcginlay
Unbelievable. Looking for equivalence. Try being on our side of the fence.
October 23, 2012 at 6:20 am
jjbhoy
once again another true and factual piece phil,sterling work and i have now started reading the other writers and sites you highlighted on an earlier piece.it really is to the detriment of scotland and the uk govt as a whole that in modern times we still have this blight on our nation.keep up the good work phil and out them for what they are,racists!
October 22, 2012 at 7:35 pm
Una@No1Ghirl
We are no longer at the back of the bus,we are leading the bandwagon others wish to jump on…
Thanks yet again Phil
October 22, 2012 at 7:16 pm
gazthechef
Two great posts Phil.any idea where the memorial will be?just finished the book.really worked for me on various levels:funny,insightful fresh and most of all, highly informative.cheers mate.have a sneaky feeling we could steal a draw tomorrow night.
;);)
October 22, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Blogiston
I heard it will be at the new Bridgeton Cross – I think the green laser shooting up five miles into the city sky at night will just top it off nicely.
October 23, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Sean South of the dead
Superb Phil. Let’s see if the zombies who are trying to hijack this project apologise for the offences of the past and give assurances that they will shout down others amongst the klan who persist in singing this vile song.
I am a great believer in truth and reconciliation and would welcome genuine remorse from true football supporters. This would signal real change in Scottish society.
We live in hope!
October 22, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Blogiston
We’re not allowed to refer to it as either zombies or huns, for some reason.
The old perv who lived next door to my family in Mount Florida called me ‘ya wee tinka’ for close on twenty years. For the first five I thought it was a term of endearment until one day he added the word Taig, and I heard his wife telling him to stop it. I then started to understand the years of other abuse he had directed at my family was due to him being a bigot. We were always told never to answer back to him, but that didn’t stop him cursing us everyday until we moved up to Kingspark…
October 23, 2012 at 2:58 pm
eddie copeland
Are you saying that the proposed memorial should be for catholics only.
As i had ancestors who perished and who emigrated
due to it.
I also live in peace and harmony with me catholic neighbours and would be more than happy for all colors and creeds to be remembered
Happily in the 21st century attitudes from bigots trying to cause diversity in society are more and more seen for what they are and what they satnd for.
Please have the decency to include my comment
October 22, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Have the decency to read the piece again…
October 22, 2012 at 9:38 pm
Ben mcginlay
‘Live in peace with me Catholic neighbours’. That says it all. I don’t even know what religion, if any, my neighbours are. That is the big big difference. I don’t care, but some people like to pigeon hole and then claim to be fair minded by saying they live in harmony. Our old friend Cooperman always mentions he has Catholic and Celtic supporting family and friends. This is to create some sort of fairness in his comments. But I can see through this. Wonder if it would be like the old tennent lager adverts when Cooperman visits Catholic/Celtic family or friends. He rings the bell and the family indoors keep the lights out and tell the weans to shut it and tape the dugs mooth up……lol
October 23, 2012 at 1:50 pm
David gilchrist
Where is the proposed location size of the memorial? I think at the opposite end of george square from the cenotaph equal in size would be fitting. It would be harder to damage if this was the case which is also a factor as stated above.
October 22, 2012 at 6:28 pm
Ben mcginlay
Excellent again Phil. I’m sure the attitude is changing slightly, particularly from the fence sitters and impartial folk, who have indeed stated that one is as bad as the other. In the past that was a cop out. Not any more, thanks to people like yourself. We don’t want more than others we just want to be equal..I think what has happened with Oldco/ Newco/Sevco has opened a few eyes and people are realising what has and is going on, and what the establishment is doing to help.
October 22, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Martybhoy
Paradoxically,in my humble opinion,defeating separatism in 2014 is in the best interest of Scots with an Irish bloodline.The best wee bigoted country in the world would have a free hand to divide and conquer without ‘interference’ from their civilised outward looking Southern neighbours.
I agree it is up to the people (and the peepul) to decide.I won’t have a vote as I haven’t paid my taxes in Scotland since the mid 1990′s…..bit like Rainjurz oldco then ey?
Miss my friends and family at times but will never miss living in a country which literally gave it’s peepul carte blanche to act without challenge nor consequence.
Careful what you wish for my fellow Scots!!!
October 22, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Steven brennan
Phil
I cannot think where this memorial will be safe in glasgow, it will have to be 100 feet of the ground to stop the morons vandalising it.
Ps lance armstrong was stripped of titles for cheating today
Ring any bells?
Keep on digging
October 22, 2012 at 5:33 pm
florian albert
The ‘zeitgeist has changed.’
I agree but that is not always and entirely a change for the better.
The danger is that, as Tony Judt wrote in 2010, ‘in the wake of a generation of victimhood… you are what your grandparents suffered.’
October 22, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Neil
Phil,
Maybe one day there will also be an Irish Centre based in Glasgow again?
KTF
Neil
October 22, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
People are working on that one…
October 22, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Robert Gillan
Mason,”tarring everyone with the same brush”? Who can forget the disgraceful scenes at the last League cup final between the defunct RFC and CFC. The majority of the old club’s fan’s were singing this song in unison. Here’s for better day’s from the Sevconian’s.
October 23, 2012 at 9:20 am
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
The Famine song is illegal in Scotland.
It has been outlawed because it is racist against Irish people.
What part of that do you not get?
The days of anti-Irish racism being acceptable in Scotland is,thankfully, coming to an end.
Deal with it.
October 24, 2012 at 12:30 am
Ben mcginlay
No paranoia from me Cooperman. I will stand by my feelings on this one. I think you are a fraud. If you speak to your Catholic friends and family and repeat your views to them, and they accept your ideas they must be from the same planet as you. Because even if you were family and you said those things to me, I would take you to task on everything. Your arguments have no substance.its good that you support your team but wake up and smell the coffee.your football club old and new have taken you all for a ride and you will fall for it every time. Keep taking the tabloids, zombie boy.
October 25, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Ben mcginlay
Ps I don’t participate in taking drugs, that is illegal. Just like the Famine Song. I am a law abiding, level headed citizen. Most people will know what I mean. Sadly Coops, you probably won’t.
October 25, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Ben mcginlay
The crap you keep regurgitating isn’t banter. I have a wide group of friends from all backgrounds. Have a good social life. Don’t you worry about my heart Coops. It’s in the right place and works perfectly well..and again, if you look back on my comments I stated that religion does not matter to me. What gets me is people pigeon holing me and judging me on assumption. Normally delusional sevconians like you.
October 26, 2012 at 6:32 am
Neil
Wee Bhoy: Mummy, mummy, does he really exist? does he really exist?
Mummy:Of course Santa Claus exists son!
Wee Bhoy: No! not Santa, Copper48
October 26, 2012 at 7:28 am