I have written before about the discomfort caused to unionists on this island by the Scottish question.
It is ironic that the main threat to the polity they worship now comes from people who see as their ethnic kith and kin.
Culturally programmed to see the Catholic Irish as the enemy and people in Scotland as their natural allies this must be very confusing for “Ulster Scots”.
One of the more amusing products of the Good Friday Agreement talks was the scrabbling around by Loyalism for an ethnic identity to counter what the Taigs had.
On the Shankill Road (Bóthar na Seanchille) they saw the Irish language as being irredeemably Fenian.
In the Ikea age they sought a flat pack culture to prove they were different rather than just disorientated.
The term “Ulster Scot” started to appear. Apparently there was a language as well.
When the old Stormont was in its pomp in the 1950s there was no mention of any of this.
Edward Carson, the hero of the Ulster Covenant, considered himself Irish and played hurling at Trinity College in Dublin.
When Unionists had unfettered power in the Northern Statelet there was no mention of their separate ethnicity.
The Equality Agenda that was part of the Good Friday Talks established the status of the Irish language in a way that would have shocked the grandees of old Stormont.
This was a long way from the Flags and Emblems act of 1954.
Suddenly the people on the road of the old church didn’t feel so special.
They had to have a language too and it would be better than the one that the Taigs had!
Loyalists had tried to manufacture their own origin myth that gave them a claim to the part of this island their ancestors had been decanted to in the early 17th century.
In the 1980s the “Cruithin myth”, the notion that the ancient Picts of Scotland had originally been from the North East of Ireland and that the Planation was merely a homecoming, ticked all the boxes for the Shankhill butchers’ rather shaky sense of themselves.
Like everything else in loyalism it was historically illiterate.
The Gaelic hero Cú Chulainn became their ancient hero fighting to expel the Irish from Ulster.
Just for the record the name of this tragic warrior mean’s “Culann’s hound” and is in the Irish language, because that was the spoken on the entire island at the time.
The ancient history of the people of these islands is more fascinating and more complex than that which could be easily comprehended by the average denizen of a Shankhill drinking club.
The Ulster Scots “language” nonsense probably produced the most hilarious waste of public money in the UK in living memory.
There is now a generally accepted fiction that there is a separate linguistic group that has to be catered for by the state.
My favourite vignette was the provision of a helpline translation service that no one called.
NO ONE.
Sorry, but this is beyond parody.
It is true that Scotland has always carried greater cultural weight in the Six Counties since partition than vice versa.
Now that which anchors them ethnically to the Union is being threatened.
All the more perplexing it is being done by people that they consider to be their own kind.
The Scotland of John Cormack and the Scottish Protestant League would get this.
Thankfully it no longer does.
The Ulster Covenant was signed to oppose the threat of Irish Home Rule (devolution).
Now the “Ulster Scots” face an existential threat that goes to the heart of their identity.
What if increasing numbers of Scots no longer think of themselves as British?
Well if they don’t then that is a matter for them.
In 2014 it will be for people residing in Scotland to decide on their future and no one else.
I believe that it is called the “consent principle”.
I don’t have a vote and neither should Sammy in Ballymena, unless, of course, he decides to go and live in his ancestral homeland.
I am sure he would be welcome.
Blogiston
” ‘However, rarely in history has the hymn, Abide With Me, been played so belligerently.’ -: Mark Simpson BBC ”
This quote that I posted in the Belfast Telegraph on Saturday was instantly removed. It belonged to a respected reporter outside St Patrick’s church (chapel) in Belfast who witnessed the passing of the LOL bands. Apart from the question, ‘Who’s removing comments at the Belfast Telegraph, and why?’, you’ve got to ask the question, why did the LOL order insist in marching past a religious symbol on a day they were apparently re-enacting the Ulster Covenant, an overtly political event in Northern Irelands history. Maybe they cannae miss the opportunity to get their real message out. Maybe a new flashpoint in Belfast is what they need. Who knows? But when I see them trying to get their noses into the independence debate in Scotland, I shudder, because their sectarian behaviour in Norn Iron, or North of Ireland, whichever you wish to term the place, is not required in twenty first century Scotland – and they would surely try to rekindle division which is their way.
September 29, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Smiddy67
Great piece again Phil. It had always amazed me that the ‘Irish’ in west of Scotland continually vote for a Unionist party such as the Labour Party over the SNP who the same ‘Irish’ claimed to be predominantly ‘Protestant’ or indeed ”Orange’ and would persecute the same ‘Irish’ if Scotlad beame Separate from the Union. Utterly amazing at such ignorance on both sides of this sorry sectarian divide.
On the one hand we have people who espouse to be ‘Irish’, ‘Catholic’ and ‘Republican’ yet continually vote for a UNIONIST Party.
On the other we have the ‘Unionist’, ‘Protestants’ who want Separation.
Go figure!
I might disagree politically with most in the SNP, as in Left and Right politics but I am firmly of the belief in a separate Scotland. Now, I have no vote as I made a decision to better my family’s living to move to Canada, so no vote for me. And I am very happy about that. Only hope that all those living in Scotland at the vote in 2014 have the bravery, honesty and dignity to take the risk and benefits of Independene.
My 2 cents/pence worth.
September 29, 2012 at 12:54 am
The Wallace
I beg your pardon Phil, but it is a relevant hypothesis. We voted for devolution and have not given the politics that that engenders the chance to evolve, if we vote yes. Although I do believe it is essential more powers are devolved from Westminster to Holyrood. Not only for development of political self determination, but to make the politicians of the UK based parties realise we ARE on the road to Independence and if they want a place in our parliament they must start to think of Scottish party politics and by deduction Scotland and it’s people, not Westminster.
September 27, 2012 at 10:58 pm
ballybough
does anybody think that the influence of the orange order and the masons will diminish if scotland votes for independence,if they do I suggest they look at how this snp goverment totally ignored not only the views of the catholic church ,but also the result of the consultation on gay marriage.I tell you this is only the start in an indepenant scotland, next it will be catholic schools which it is known are opposed by the vast majority of nationalist msp’s and their supporters in this country and their abolition will be high up on the agenda of an independant goverment.As for the question asto why the Irish diaspora would want to stay part of Britain look at the IRISH diaspora in the rest of britain which is far greater than it is in scotland and maybe they have far more affinity with them than they have with a scotland which over the last one hundred and fifty years that has done its best and continues to do so to undermine and destroy our religeon and culture
September 27, 2012 at 10:32 pm
John Burns
You are so right – how ‘our’ people 17% minority, can contemplate voting for an independent Scotland, is beyond me.
A modern UK protects our rights – an independent Scotland would squeeze the life out of them.
Forget about the ‘Loyals’ who wrap themselves in the Union Jack – they ARE NOT the UK – however give them an isolated Scotland and they and all their fellow travellers – Church of Scotland – Orange Order in Scotland – Masonic Lodge in Scotland – Wee Frees and the ‘closet’ Covenanters, will drive the agenda for a Protestant/Prestbyterian Scotland, aided and abetted by the ‘hard core’ SNP support and the now disgraced Scottish main stream media.
For God’s sake wake up and don’t ‘sleepwalk’ into an arrangement that will damn your sons and daughters for years to come – read your Scottish Social and Religious history from the mid-nineteenth century – it is littered with discrimination and ethnic oppression.
September 28, 2012 at 11:15 am
The Wallace
I have wanted independence for all my life, but this is a time for cool heads. If we “simply” vote yes we are handing power to politicians and political parties who are having a difficult time handling devolution, never mind independence. If you think about it, we voted for devolution, that was the will of the people, but have the political parties done our bidding? No,the Labour, Tory and Liberal politicians all have United Kingdom agendas, the SNP follow an agenda of total Independence. As I have just shown they are, for purely party political reasons, intrinsically at loggerheads with the thing we voted for, which was devolution and each in their turn are trying to undermine what the people of Scotland voted for,ie devolution.
Phil in a previous article mentioned his thirty year rule, that is, the true effect of major political change cannot start to be judged until the major players are no longer around, a sort of letting the ink dry period. I have thought hard on this and it is “simply” true.
Politics under devolution must be allowed to evolve, it is barely a decade old. We have NO Scottish political parties, the SNP are movement with one single aim Nationalism, after that their collective aims seem to dissipate, some left wing, some right wing and most swinging about in the middle, depending which of them you talk to, muttering something about being free in Europe, just like Greece, Spain and of course, the Republic of Ireland whose sovereignty now belongs to the IMF. The other parties are really Westminster based and so must kowtow to what is best for their UK slanted parties.
Our country needs to develop through devolution. We need political parties in Scotland to realise the Union is dying, and Scotland needs parties that are relevant to the views of it’s people. Hopefully a new generation of politicians will embrace this idea, before we turn into an ‘independent’ third world country.
Please if anyone is going to debate this point don’t use the Braveheart rhetoric which some here are swinging about like claymores. I am a Scots patriot who does not want our children and their children’s children, to be left a legacy of financial and social instability, because we could not be patient and have listened to a certain politician who sees this as his last chance to become prime minister of Scotland. As I have said before we must move from a position of strength. Bide your time, we have the opportunity to blow the final whistle when WE like and we going to do it when we are getting beat one nothing.
September 27, 2012 at 10:05 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Actuall it is a 50 year “rule” think of the Anglo-Irish treaty for example.
September 27, 2012 at 10:18 pm
Bill
Birthright
Consider this. A man born in India before partition found himself living in Pakistan after partition (Karachi). Subsequently he migrated to Britain and became a British Citizen. Unlike most other British citizens he is not able to visit India (the land of his birth) on account of his connections to Pakistan. I know him and he is confounded just as I am.
The point is that in most cases the land of your birth confers some rights and obligations. Subsequently, things may change and you may find yourself up the creek. As a holder of dual citizenship (Britain and Australia) currently living in Australia I would have liked to have been given a vote as to the future of my Native Scotland. I still consider myself a stakeholder. I guess I could just turn up on the day but it is such a long way to go to exercise a perceived birthright.
September 27, 2012 at 1:19 pm
miscuse miscuse
LET US FACE THIS TOGETHER, FACT IS SCOTLAND IS AND HAS BEEN FOR CENTURIES A CONQUERED RACE, AND WELL CONQUERED TO I MAY SAY NUFF SAID
September 27, 2012 at 12:49 am
Graeme Robertson
Being ‘bought and sold for English gold’ along with the early ‘North Briton’ brigade, does not subjugation make.
Scots went along with the union for a very long time as we reaped many economic benefits.
If you want to get into a discussion about the ’45 you are on poor ground, just like the hills outside Inverness.
September 27, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Buffythecat
The further distance we can put between Scotland and Orangeism the better. Give them a vote on the Independence issue you must be kidding. They wouldn’t know how to spell democracy.
I cannot stand the SNP but I will be voting for Independance which as James Connolly said is the first step towards a more just society…everywhere.
September 26, 2012 at 10:45 pm
John Burns
You are so wrong – please reconsider – see my reply to Ballybough.
September 28, 2012 at 11:18 am
The Wallace
Has there been any sign of a suggested or draft constitution, how would we stand with respect to the European Union, any plans for the growth of our future economy, social services, state pensions, local government? I could go on, but to vote a simple Yes as Mr Hart suggests leaves us buying a pig in a poke. You would not buy a house or a car without decent information on what you are purchasing. This vote only appeals to passions and idealism and darker things in the Scottish psyche. Show me one iota of what we are going to realistically do when we are Independent? What happened to the pragmatic Scot? This move is just the wrong time.
September 26, 2012 at 10:12 pm
gazthechef
from a purely fiscal point of view,does Scotland have the infrastructure and industry to survive as an independent country??does it have political stability to the point that were we to break from westminster,all hell wouldn’t break loose??Scotland would be doing well to get everyone pulling in the one direction first.the old song”Parcel Of Rogues” springs to mind.”bought and sold for English gold”.such has been the essence of our relationship with the auld enemy over the years that now we’re going to shake hands and go our seperate ways??maybe theres a good reason we’ve clung on to them for so long.maybe before we have an independent Scotland we need to focus on trying to establish a more tolerant Scotland??after seeing some of the SNP PPbroadcasts in recent I think we’re some way off.
September 26, 2012 at 8:51 pm
BillyTim
Scottish independence is a no-brainer, really. Why would we of all people – the Irish diaspora wish to keep the foul imperialist British state alive? Why would we, the Irish Scots (and the original Scots were Irish too) wish to deny Scotland what we fervently wish for Ireland – freedom from perfidious Albion? No British State – no six-county statelet. The last impediment to a nine-county Ulster, within a United Ireland is the British State. Engerlund-Walesia – or whatever it wanted to call itself, would ditch it like a shot. No British State, no Orange Fascist statelet. Only possible downside? They all come over to Larkhall – in which case, we could allow UDI for Larkhall. Not a bad idea, with or without independence!
September 26, 2012 at 8:32 pm
Eddie Hart
It always amazes me that so many of us from the Irish Catholic Dispora seem so keen to line up along side the orange order to say no to an independant Scotland. Both side completly convinced that a YES vote will leade to the other side “ruling the roost”. When you take a step back and actually look at it the whole thing is the normal “divide and conquer” tactice of the brits.
There is a very valid resaon the orange order in Scotland is doing ALL the leg work for the no campaign, they have always viewed the labour party as the fenian party yet they are partnering with them and working very closely with them and canvasing for them as they are desperate to keep Scotland british.
To my mind there is a simple question in 2014, if you are a brit and happy to be a brit and desperatly want to keep the union flag flying then vote no with the orangemen, if you want to end british rule and see the end of that flag forever then vote YES
September 26, 2012 at 7:31 pm
Ben mcginlay
I have said in the past I am not really interested in politics. But I do believe Scotland should not be independent as I do not trust the people we have in place at the moment, especially as regards to the minority we are.I think we are better off where we are. I would not even give creedence to anyone from the orange order or the so called Ulster Scots. To me and this my opinion they are completely on a level with the BNP and Nazi’s. Hate organisations, use recessions to drum up support by blaming the foreign imports for unemployment levels and increases in crimes etc. A different shade of skin colour or religion is not a crime to level headed and fair minded people.
September 26, 2012 at 6:53 pm
The Wallace
That is the problem these people have too much say and wherever their roots are or were, it is not in democracy and free speech. Although they seem to be weaker than they once were, as has been seen with the attempted Rangers cover ups and distortions, they still have big clout and influential sympathisers in Scotland. And if Scotland were to become Independent they could become a serious political force as Scotland slips under the rule of the IMF just like many European nations are at the moment.
What gets me is we haven’t even got devolution going properly and now we are facing a vote on Independence, when the World is in economic meltdown.
I remember being called a fantasist in the first devolution vote, we were a heavily industrialised nation then, with the prospect of vast oil revenues. We have nothing but oil now and knowing our luck, the minute we achieve Independence somebody will discover cold fusion or zero-point energy and we’ll be left wi the erses oot oor troosers and stuck with The Scottish Establishment, shall we politely call them.
Do you think Westminster will let us waltz off with the oil? As I’ve said before here, they paid a dowry to get Scotland and they will want alimony. One big thing we WILL definitely need is a navy where are we going to get that?
September 26, 2012 at 6:33 pm
Stu
The Scottish government has been quite clever about energy. They’ve invested a lot of money in alternative energy, regardless of what happens with oil long term, and are in a good position to sell electricity to our neighbours. Countries that are energy independent are in a very good position, and now with bio-fuel being produced from Whisky dregs, I’d say we’re in an even better position than before.
September 26, 2012 at 8:43 pm
Chris
Phil, interesting point on The Pics (the painted ones)… the name Scotland derives from Scotia. Scotia was the Roman name for Ireland (Land of the Scoti)… The Romans also named the raiders from Ireland who made raids on Roman Britain ‘Scoti’. These raiders settled in the West of Scotland – Argyll (The kingdom was called Dalriada and includied much of the Teddys head). So, literally, Ulster-Scot means Ulster-Irish. I can almost feel the confusion.
September 26, 2012 at 5:45 pm
Stephen McCormack
An interesting piece Phil and I was taken aback by the link in the Belfast Telegraph. The countdown towards the referendum is ticking and the Independence question(s) to be asked are still to be finalised. Although I don’t agree with the Senior Orangeman’s call for Ulster Scots vote in Scottish Independence referendum, you have to state that they are being very clever in bringing this to the public and gaining publicity. I analyse this that they already see the doomsday scenario you highlight in that Scotland does NOT want to be part of Great Britain. This I believe, if it happens, would be the catalyst for the unification of the 6 counties with the other 26 in Ireland.
As you know the West Coast of Scotland is inherent with bigotry and sectarianism. Mr Salmond has so far has been able to unite supporters from all backgrounds regardless of race, creed and religion.
In the 2001 census just over 65% of the population were classed as Christian with 42% being with the Church of Scotland and Protestants.
The get the ‘loyal’ people from the West Coast of Scotland, who display their British allegiance every fortnight, to vote Yes for Independence will be difficult and the article from the Senior Orangeman will only go and make it more difficult. As stated early they are being very clever in bringing this to the public and gaining publicity. I hope that Mr Salmond sees through this, remains focussed and doesn’t blink first. For the Ulster Scots, perhaps history will show that this was the beginning of the end.
September 26, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Frankier
Peter, the latest batch from Sammy’s homeland are not too pleasant a people either but the good folks of Troon don’t seem to see anything wrong with them living amongst them. I wonder what these same people would say if Gerry Adams or Martin McGuiness decided to take up residence there in one of their most expensive areas?
September 26, 2012 at 3:53 pm
keddaw
If the native Scots, and the foreigners living there, vote for independence then is it possible that an ex-pat Scot like me might find myself an illegal alien in England? The new Scotland will have no treaties with England, will not be part of the EU and so I have no right to work in England. Will my passport also become invalid and so I will be unable to travel abroad? Will I, or any Scot, who is abroad be unable to come home because our passports are not valid?
I know all these things will be dealt with pragmatically and the oil and national debt are the issues of real concern, but sometimes it’s nice to look at the effects on the little guy.
September 26, 2012 at 3:52 pm
Proud Scot
Oh bugger I never thought of that. I’m living and working in England and have a UK passport but i would lose that i suppose? Would be interesting to be effectively stateless
September 26, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Stu
On what grounds would you lose your passport? You’re still a British citizen until such time as you give up your citizenship. Me, I’m going for the dual nationality if it happens.
September 26, 2012 at 5:44 pm
Proud Scot
Stu. I don’t consider myself British. Never have and never will. I am a Scot working and living in England, no different from any other Scot living and working in another country. When Scotland gets independence I will be handing back my UK passport for a Scottish one but I’ll no doubt stay working and living in England – well someone has to show them how it’s done LOL
September 27, 2012 at 3:32 pm
Frankier
How can anyone know how the loyalists or royalists will vote?
They won’t even have a clue themselves, even after they have voted. They have obviously voted for the SNP in large numbers at the last election, otherwise Salmond wouldn’t have the majority he has. That is why he nipped smartly away from Cardinal O’Brien’s coat tails after the election and decided instead to champion the dodo’s cause. Any mob who would wave an Israeli flag alongside BNP programme sellers and nazi salutists would be stupid enough to vote SNP again while hoping to stay in the union. Crazy, mixed up juvenile delinquents right enough.
September 26, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Lisbonlion72
Brilliant,are we Brits,are we not? AhahahahhahahhhahhhhahhHHH
September 26, 2012 at 3:06 pm
robertg
Are they not linguistically unique on the grounds of only having on word in their native language vocabulary?
“NO!”
(imagine Ian Paisley Spitting IMage puppet style delivery….)
September 26, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Paul J
i know, lets have a vote on a united ireland where all those who consider themselves to be anglo irish, american irish or whatever get a vote. i am an exiled scot of 10 years and understand that i do not get a vote so the orange order will just have to deal with it. Actually imagine an election where everyone could self define their nationality and vote in that countries election, whether or not they live there. what a different world we would live in.
September 26, 2012 at 1:59 pm
Erin
I would like to know when the term Ulster-Scot first came into being, any history texts I’ve ever read it was always “Scots-Irish”.
September 26, 2012 at 1:15 pm
Nobody Knows
I always thought the term Ulster Scots was used simply by those who did not want to be mistaken as having any connection with the Irish. I then one day did some resarch myself but it proved inconclusive.
I believe speaking out of the side of your mouth is not sufficient to determine that as a language.
September 26, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Graeme Robertson
In defence of the Scots language. I wouldnt consider Burns as ‘talking out the side of his mouth’. However, the language situation in Northern Ireland is peculiar to the place.
Scots being an antiphony to the status of the Irish language.
To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, scots, as a language, was removed from schools in Scotland around 1810? (or there abouts) The term ‘not a fit and proper language to educate in’ rings a bell. After that it became inextricably linked with the language of the uneducated lower classes.
Was it English cultural imperialism after 1707? Nobody really seemed to mind.
September 26, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Nobody Knows
Sorry Graeme, i wasn’t making a slight at the old scots lingo used by Burns. I was referring to the people in Northern Ireland that actually speak out the side of their mouths to differentiate their cultural identity, those that claim to be Ulster Scots.
September 26, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Graeme Robertson
I was over in Bundoran on holiday. After a nights drinking I got into a conversation with a guy outside the pub.
Don’t think he particularly liked the fact I was Scottish.
He went on to say to me ‘You know the problem with Ireland?’
‘What?’ I said.
‘The Scots!’ he said, grinning and swaying slightly.
‘Well’ I replied, ‘Unfortunately, we don’t want them back’.
September 26, 2012 at 12:51 pm
Tony
I marched in Edinburgh on Saturday with my weans and friends all to show support for independence. There were over 10,000 people there of all ethnic groups, ages and political opinions. Well apart from the EDL/BNP types who tried to disrupt the gathering at the end. This Unionist/loyalist type sub-group is well established within a family grouping that includes the Orange Order. These people along with the Tories their soon to pass away poodles the Lib-Dem’s and the once proud labour party in Scotland are the negative coalition aimed at preventing Scotland from taking it’s rightful place amongst other nations who are free to manage their own affairs.
Amongst the people marching in Edinburgh there were representatives from various European independence movements, from the well known Basques and Catalans to the less well know Flemish and unheard of Venetian groups. Added to my unrepentant fenian family there was also the James Connolly society and one or two Irish and Welsh flags. I even reckon that the cross of St. George would have been a fitting flag to fly in solidarity. The English believe -wrongly- that we are bleeding them dry, we know that they are bleeding us dry.
Thus the people marching were not a xenophobic group hell bent on showing who they hate, totally in contrast with the OO who would keep us within the political family of Britishness. No triumphalism and coat trailing, merely a family day out, very subdued but with a quiet determination to show the world that a new era is on us.
I look forward to next year, and the opportuninty to march in Glasgow too.
September 26, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Chas
What a splendid idea to allow the ‘Ulster-Scots’ a vote in the Scottish referendum. They have made such a wonderful job of running the 6 counties that they are quite entitled to tell the Scots how their country should be run.
September 26, 2012 at 12:36 pm
JohnPaul
Does that mean we can chant “The Dal Riada is over, why don’t you go home”?
just kiddin.
September 26, 2012 at 12:33 pm
Nickbrun
The ‘Ulster Scots’ really do have identity issues. Nothing proves this better than the fact that they laud former US president Andrew Jackson with a mural on the Shankhill. Funny that they should represent him as some sort of hero when in fact he despised the British all his life. Blaming them for the deaths of his mother and brothers.
September 26, 2012 at 12:24 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Historical illiteracy defines them as a sub-culture…
September 26, 2012 at 12:30 pm
Mouldy67
They don’t get it at all
GB of England and six of ulster ,
September 26, 2012 at 12:22 pm
john young
Very educational Phil,
Was in waterstones in Glasgow this morning bought your book , your number 4 in their chart.
Good for you.
September 26, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Ian McKenzie
The people of Scotland are the only ones that should decide our future. I hope that the will soon be free of the union and able to take our place in the world as a true nation again.
September 26, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Neil
Phil,
Loyalist remind me of the Nazi’s and their fixation with the Aryan race and the holy grail, just to make themselves sound ligitimate.
Scotland wil be voting for herself and no one else!
Alba-Erin go Bragh
KTF
September 26, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Stu
Neil,
Eaxctly. Mr Orange Lodge seems to think that they should get a vote because they are ‘stakeholders’. Really? On what grounds? Because you have some folklegend of support coming from Scotland 100 years ago?
Why not give the English a vote then? Surely they are stakeholders, given that an Independent Scotland would have a direct effect on the Union of which they are part of? Or give everyone in the European Union a vote? Surely, they are stakeholders as well, given that an independent Scotland would see the size and influence of Britain reduced, and potentially a new state applying for membership?
In fact, why not everyone in the world, seeing as an independent Scotland would presumably seek to join the UN, and would exert some influence (however small) on world events?
I currently reside in England. I was born in Scotland, and I’m back there very frequently. As things currently stand, I’m not allowed to vote, and I accept that. It would wrong of me to have influence on a vote in a country where I don’t even live, and don’t have to live with the consequences of my vote (be they positive or negative). The idea that some guy whose family left Scotland hundreds of years ago would be able to vote due to some vaguely-defined ‘ethnic’ connection is ridiculous.
I would say ‘If you want to vote, then move to Scotland’, but frankly, I wouldn’t want to encourage them.
September 26, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Good point, but it is 400 years not 100….
September 26, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Phil Mac Giolla Bhain
Good point, but it is 400 years not 100….
September 26, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Kenny McCaffrey
Great read Phil (as is the book – just got it, it’s brilliant). Love the helpline story – classic.
I agree a lot with Stu & Neil. I moved to England just before my 23rd birthday, and have been here more than 23 years, but still consider myself Glaswegian (by the way, didn’t become properly ‘Scottish’ till an English person called me that, but that’s another thread altogether).
I would never expect to have a vote on independence, just as the devolution was nothing to do with me either (was too young when that was first voted on). But I will be changing my mind if a neanderthal loyalist from Belfast gets even a sniff at having a say in the matter!
I do miss Glasgow – the people, humour, culture esp, but also parks, hills(!) etc – but I do NOT miss all the sectarian sh!te. Thatcher (and ‘on yer bike’ Tebbitt) might have helped get me got me here, but things like a top Scottish judge having to explain why he’s unbiased to some chancer salesman just because he now runs something that is supported by a fair number of delusion Scots – among them the rump of a no-longer relevant sectarian organisation – well, that just makes me glad I’m still here folks.
Whether Scotland becomes fully independent will not matter to me – although I would say it was inevitable as soon as devolution (or federalism as most of the world calls it) became a reality. However, I do wonder just how ready for – or even deserving of – independence a nation can be that still counts among a fair number of its people such racist bigots.
Remember guys, no matter what the outcome of the Rangers fiasco, we all know that for most of its existence it was seen as the ‘establishment’ in Scotland at play. What are they going to be like when they’ve got the keys to the whole house, I wonder?
PS. If any Unionist in NI gets a say in Scottish politics, can anybody related the Fermanagh McCaffreys get vote in Stormont?
September 26, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Stu
Sorry Phil. I should have put that ’100 years’ in context – I think it forms part of the argument as to why that Orange Lodge guy in Margaret Hart’s link thinks he should get a vote. He refers to 1912 anti-home rule covenant:
“Many of them were not born in Ulster so they could not sign the covenant, but they held it in their hearts.”
September 26, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Peter Parsnip
Let’s hope Sammy doesn’t fancy his ancestral homeland. The earlier batch of Sammy’s have left a rather unsavoury heritage,ie H&W shipyard mentality.
September 26, 2012 at 12:07 pm
James Cameron
I read about this yesterday ans as you say it is beyond parody.
I’m sure their brothers and sisters in the Loyal Orange Order in Scotland will back their case.
However their powers are dying on the political stage. I’m sure like me you will remember the main Orange Parade that would march through Glasgow in the 70′s and attract up to 100,000 ‘followers’?
Well now there are far less bands and the ‘parade’ is down to 10,000 followers.
They are slowly but surely dying on their back side in Scotland. The vast majority of the youth vote which will be lowered to 16 for the referendum see absolutely no connection with these self styled Ulster Scots.
September 26, 2012 at 12:06 pm
Margaret Hart
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19710873
The Orange Order are calling for ulster scots to be able to vote in the Indepedence referendum
September 26, 2012 at 12:00 pm